Atheist student threatened & disowned for protesting prayer

[SD]Twysta · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2011 11:08 am

Religion is old.

In a few hundred years its completely gone.

Get over your Farking selves imo.

andycooly · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2011 11:09 am

Thee_UniQue wrote:

All the parties involved have overreacted.

Ichimaru420 · **Joined:** Mar 2007 **Posts:** 2778 **Location:** quit

The main thing is that his parents threw him, out lol wtf?
On a hunch/faith that God is real...seems logical to me.

strangelove · **Joined:** Aug 2007 **Posts:** 1255 **Location:** no

NuclearSilo wrote:

I'm not from the US, but.. what's the impact with having a prayer in school? Like it will change anything with/without?

It presents a slippery slope that could lead to even further religious encroachment in other public spaces, and that's how it is usually handled in court. The U.S Supreme Court has already ruled school prayer unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment in the US Constitution. There have been similar cases in the past with schools that have violated this law and they have been shot down in court for the reasons stated above. This is done to prevent religious favoritism which could lead (and has sometimes led) to religious discrimination. I should note that most of these cases were initiated by religious parents or students with differing religious views.

Public schools receive federal financial assistance, so they must operate according to federal law. Private institutions and schools are funded by tuition costs and donations from parents so they are allowed to operate under their own rules and at their own discretion.

Establishment Clause

Here are some similar cases if you're interested:

Lee v. Weisman
SFISD v. Doe

heroo · **Joined:** Sep 2006 **Posts:** 6618 **Location:**

[SD]Twysta wrote:

Religion is old.

In a few hundred years its completely gone.

Get over your Farking selves imo.

your mom is old too.

in a few hundred years she'll be completely gone too.

so you too should get over yourself? :sohappy:

Squirt · **Joined:** Jan 2008 **Posts:** 8186 **Location:**

heroo wrote:

[SD]Twysta wrote:

Religion is old.

In a few hundred years its completely gone.

Get over your Farking selves imo.

your mom is old too.

in a few hundred years she'll be completely gone too.

so you too should get over yourself? :sohappy:

lol Religion is slowly dying as you educate the populace more..
We'll reach an era where people think for themselves/logically and aren't as easily persuaded as our ancestors..

[SD]Twysta · **Posted:** Sun May 29, 2011 2:20 pm

heroo wrote:

[SD]Twysta wrote:

Religion is old.

In a few hundred years its completely gone.

Get over your Farking selves imo.

your mom is old too.

in a few hundred years she'll be completely gone too.

so you too should get over yourself? :sohappy:

i dont even know where to begin on this.. lmfao, im not even gonna... :giveup:

monmon33 · **Joined:** Jan 2009 **Posts:** 170 **Location:**

this is farked up on all ends. if he didn't want to pray then don't pray not like he was being forced, BUT it is a high school graduation and i don't think school's should have anything involving religion. I'm a Christian but I respect peoples opinion and lifestyle. I don't think he should be alienated just because he sees things different.

BuDo · **Joined:** Dec 2008 **Posts:** 4714 **Location:**

strangelove wrote:

You're either not from the US or very naive if you believe this is about defenseless Christians being persecuted by the godless atheist for a harmless school prayer. This is about holding individuals accountable for laws broken and civil rights being trampled on. Any public space or facility that is government-funded is not allowed to promote or sponsor any one religion or faith and is to prevent such violations from occurring. If this were a private school, then I would agree that this was a pointless fight to pursue because such actions would be allowed. Furthermore, these are the type of people that wouldn't flinch for one second to stop any other non-Christian prayer from being uttered at graduation.

BuDo wrote:

As an atheist he's no different than some religious nuts who feel they have go overboard to impose their beliefs on others.....He failed....All he had to do was chill and not make a big deal.

In general, atheists have no issues about anyone praying to whatever god or deity they want. You can pray till you're blue in the face and collapse from hypoxia for all we care, as long as it isn't violating anyone else's rights. Was the student robbing people of their faith? No. What beliefs did he impose on others? The belief that public schools and facilities shouldn't promote any one religion? That's not a belief, that's law which applies to everyone. Take your false equivalence argument elsewhere.

Civil rights exist specifically because minority groups 'make a big deal' when treated like second-class citizens.

The point I'm trying to make is that I believe his acts are biased towards his belief because I'd wager that there were other "unlawful" acts on school grounds that warranted his actions but he probably ignored it..like witnessing drug use on campus or theft etc. This one touched on his hot button where he had to get physical over it. In this way he's imposing his belief under the guise of "upholding" the law. I doubt he cared much for the law is what I'm saying...also I'm not saying that he shouldn't have acted just that he didn't to have over react.

PocketNinja · **Joined:** Feb 2009 **Posts:** 22 **Location:** --->

heroo wrote:

[SD]Twysta wrote:

Religion is old.

In a few hundred years its completely gone.

Get over your Farking selves imo.

your mom is old too.

in a few hundred years she'll be completely gone too.

so you too should get over yourself? :sohappy:

grow up

Love · **Joined:** Nov 2007 **Posts:** 5336 **Location:**

Lol, is cool to see how well people understand their religion.

William-CL · **Joined:** Feb 2007 **Posts:** 7363 **Location:** N/A

Him Stop prayer is retarded as I don't see an Issue with it, but being disowned and cut off from his family is ridiculous. Both Sides in this story are douche bags.

FYI: Prayer doesn't mean you believe in God, it's also a way to wish someone Luck or to have Hope or Faith in someone or something.

Love · **Joined:** Nov 2007 **Posts:** 5336 **Location:**

^

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=prayer+definition

Using your own definition is cool and all but yeah let's not pretend is the standard, much like religion ^^.

strangelove · **Joined:** Aug 2007 **Posts:** 1255 **Location:** no

BuDo wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that I believe his acts are biased towards his belief because I'd wager that there were other "unlawful" acts on school grounds that warranted his actions but he probably ignored it..like witnessing drug use on campus or theft etc. This one touched on his hot button where he had to get physical over it. In this way he's imposing his belief under the guise of "upholding" the law. I doubt he cared much for the law is what I'm saying...also I'm not saying that he shouldn't have acted just that he didn't to have over react.

He may very well be a hypocrite in regards to upholding other laws, but he isn't imposing any sort of belief system on anyone. The US Constitution is, by and large, a secular document, so by proxy, you're saying the Constitution is imposing secular beliefs on the public. The Establishment Clause in the First Amendment was made specifically to prevent people imposing their beliefs on others, which is what he was arguing for. Would you feel the same way if someone who wasn't an atheist or Christian complained about the prayer at graduation? And once more, how did he overreact? He filed a formal complaint to the school board which was essentially ignored, so he escalated. If anything, your apathy is much more aggravating.

There was already a moment of silence included in the graduation program, and the student who led the prayer interrupted that nonsectarian moment of silence with Christian prayer. Everyone could have very well prayed to themselves to whatever god they wanted to during that moment of silence, and problems would have been avoided.

William-CL · **Joined:** Feb 2007 **Posts:** 7363 **Location:** N/A

Love wrote:

^

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=prayer+definition

Using your own definition is cool and all but yeah let's not pretend is the standard, much like religion ^^.

I know more athiests than religious people that have prayed for family struck in a car accident or on their death bed. It's such a terrible thing for people to have hope rather than acknowledge the one they love is gonna be dead and gone forever because of some random ass event that couldn't have been avoided. My Bad. Hope is terrible, the world we live in Today is just Fan-Fucking-Tastic with everyone hating on everyone for their religious beliefs. I hate people that would rather bash on someone elses beliefs or lack of like a piece of shit rather than defend their own. Makes me fucking sick that people can't simply get along.

BuDo · **Joined:** Dec 2008 **Posts:** 4714 **Location:**

strangelove wrote:

BuDo wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that I believe his acts are biased towards his belief because I'd wager that there were other "unlawful" acts on school grounds that warranted his actions but he probably ignored it..like witnessing drug use on campus or theft etc. This one touched on his hot button where he had to get physical over it. In this way he's imposing his belief under the guise of "upholding" the law. I doubt he cared much for the law is what I'm saying...also I'm not saying that he shouldn't have acted just that he didn't to have over react.

He may very well be a hypocrite in regards to upholding other laws, but he isn't imposing any sort of belief system on anyone. The US Constitution is, by and large, a secular document, so by proxy, you're saying the Constitution is imposing secular beliefs on the public. The Establishment Clause in the First Amendment was made specifically to prevent people imposing their beliefs on others, which is what he was arguing for. Would you feel the same way if someone who wasn't an atheist or Christian complained about the prayer at graduation? And once more, how did he overreact? He filed a formal complaint to the school board which was essentially ignored, so he escalated. If anything, your apathy is much more aggravating.

There was already a moment of silence included in the graduation program, and the student who led the prayer interrupted that nonsectarian moment of silence with Christian prayer. Everyone could have very well prayed to themselves to whatever god they wanted to during that moment of silence, and problems would have been avoided.

You're right about my apathy...some things I think aren't worth creating a fuss over.

Love · **Joined:** Nov 2007 **Posts:** 5336 **Location:**

Blackdragon6 wrote:

Love wrote:

^

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=prayer+definition

Using your own definition is cool and all but yeah let's not pretend is the standard, much like religion ^^.

I know more athiests than religious people that have prayed for family struck in a car accident or on their death bed. It's such a terrible thing for people to have hope rather than acknowledge the one they love is gonna be dead and gone forever because of some random ass event that couldn't have been avoided. My Bad. Hope is terrible, the world we live in Today is just Fan-Fucking-Tastic with everyone hating on everyone for their religious beliefs. I hate people that would rather bash on someone elses beliefs or lack of like a piece of shit rather than defend their own. Makes me fucking sick that people can't simply get along.

Rather ignorant hypocrites, being religious or the counter isn't a some of the times deal. Also, you still don't get the commonly understood definition of the word and it's origin.

Azilius · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 4236 **Location:** CS:GO

Blackdragon6 wrote:

Love wrote:

^

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=prayer+definition

Using your own definition is cool and all but yeah let's not pretend is the standard, much like religion ^^.

I know more athiests than religious people that have prayed for family struck in a car accident or on their death bed. It's such a terrible thing for people to have hope rather than acknowledge the one they love is gonna be dead and gone forever because of some random ass event that couldn't have been avoided. My Bad. Hope is terrible, the world we live in Today is just Fan-Fucking-Tastic with everyone hating on everyone for their religious beliefs. I hate people that would rather bash on someone elses beliefs or lack of like a piece of shit rather than defend their own. Makes me fucking sick that people can't simply get along.

It's quite simple. Atheists cannot, in any way shape or form, pray. If they do, they aren't atheists. Pull your head out of your ass. Instead of being stupid, be smart. It's awesome.

William-CL · **Joined:** Feb 2007 **Posts:** 7363 **Location:** N/A

Love wrote:

Rather ignorant hypocrites, being religious or the counter isn't a some of the times deal. Also, you still don't get the commonly understood definition of the word and it's origin.

I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant.

Azilius wrote:

It's quite simple. Atheists cannot, in any way shape or form, pray. If they do, they aren't atheists. Pull your head out of your ass. Instead of being stupid, be smart. It's awesome.

Why? Because the Atheist Community Said so?
My Sister is Wicken, but she prays in her religion. (Different ways of course), but she doesn't believe in God. For Example

Spoiler!

You don't have to Believe in God to Pray you Ignoramus. And IF your simply being a Douche because I have different beliefs then you, Go Fuck yourself =] Kindly Please.

Azilius · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 4236 **Location:** CS:GO

Blackdragon6 wrote:

Love wrote:

Azilius wrote:

It's quite simple. Atheists cannot, in any way shape or form, pray. If they do, they aren't atheists. Pull your head out of your ass. Instead of being stupid, be smart. It's awesome.

Why? Because the Atheist Community Said so?
My Sister is Wicken, but she prays in her religion. (Different ways of course), but she doesn't believe in God.

You don't have to Believe in God to Pray you Ignoramus. And IF your simply being a Douche because I have different beliefs then you, Go Fuck yourself =] Kindly Please.

Actually because the dictionary says so..

Pray:
Address a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity or other object of worship.

It's in most used form, pray refers to praying to a deity or God or a big rock or maybe your nightstand. Could mean you're praying to your phone. Doesn't really matter. No where did I say a witch or a wizard or a turtle couldn't pray to whatever they wanted to. Nowhere did I mention God. I simply said, an atheist can not, in any way shape or form, pray. Otherwise...they are not atheists.

Atheism is not only the absence of belief in God, but all Gods, deities, and so forth. Hence why an atheist cannot pray.

So kindly take note of my earlier advice...

TheDrop · **Joined:** May 2008 **Posts:** 7150 **Location:** uefa2012

1. Was the prayer in any form based on only one religion
2. Was this the first time the prayer was ever performed or was it a annual thing.

Azilius wrote:

And the school could have, you know, followed the law. But that's too tough for religions isn't it. Seeing as how many religious people are exempt from certain laws due to religion itself. If you are unaware of what I'm talking about you can google around. This is just another case of state and religion not being separated, hence why it SHOULD be blown out of proportion. The little things add up..

"one nation, under God"
OH MAH GAWDZ, I WONDER IF HE HAS NOTICED THIS PHRASE YET? SOMEONE TELL HIM SO HE CAN GAIN MORE ATTENTIONZZ

Love · **Joined:** Nov 2007 **Posts:** 5336 **Location:**

Azilius wrote:

Actually because the dictionary says so..

Pray:
Address a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity or other object of worship.

It's in most used form, pray refers to praying to a deity or God or a big rock or maybe your nightstand. Could mean you're praying to your phone. Doesn't really matter. No where did I say a witch or a wizard or a turtle couldn't pray to whatever they wanted to. Nowhere did I mention God. I simply said, an atheist can not, in any way shape or form, pray. Otherwise...they are not atheists.

Atheism is not only the absence of belief in God, but all Gods, deities, and so forth. Hence why an atheist cannot pray.

So kindly take note of my earlier advice...

strangelove · **Joined:** Aug 2007 **Posts:** 1255 **Location:** no

UnbeatableDevil wrote:

1. Was the prayer in any form based on only one religion
2. Was this the first time the prayer was ever performed or was it a annual thing.

1. Christian, but irrelevant since nonsectarian prayer has also been banned by courts in the past
2. Also irrelevant

TheDrop · **Joined:** May 2008 **Posts:** 7150 **Location:** uefa2012

strangelove wrote:

UnbeatableDevil wrote:

1. Was the prayer in any form based on only one religion
2. Was this the first time the prayer was ever performed or was it a annual thing.

1. Christian, but irrelevant since nonsectarian prayer has also been banned by courts in the past
2. Also irrelevant

I dont see how the 2nd one was irrelevant, cause if its a annual tradition thing, its obvious hes being a attention whore.

What are your thoughts on the pledge of allegiance. the national christmas tree? easter egg hunt at the white house?
Oh yeah, christmas being a federal holiday aswell.

strangelove · **Joined:** Aug 2007 **Posts:** 1255 **Location:** no

UnbeatableDevil wrote:

I dont see how the 2nd one was irrelevant, cause if its a annual tradition thing, its obvious hes being a attention whore.

What are your thoughts on the pledge of allegiance. the national christmas tree? easter egg hunt at the white house?
Oh yeah, christmas being a federal holiday aswell.

Scoring brownie points with people is not a factor that determines the validity of legal claims. You're free to think he was attention-whoring if you so choose to, but you should also acknowledge the frivolity of such a claim. In other words, "So?". I shrug my shoulders in your general direction.

I'm comfortable with holidays because they've become so secularized that they're no longer relevant to the faith. Christmas is essentially a celebration of consumerism and Easter is the day when children eat an obscene amount of chocolate. Furthermore, the fact that Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25th according to the Bible just adds to the amusement. The pledge thing was a response by President Eisenhower in the 50s for the godless commies in Russia. The original pledge said, "One nation indivisible". While I find the current wording a little cringe-inducing, legal battles over it never get anywhere and slow-boil away into oblivion as soon as 'ceremonial deism' comes up which absolves them from unconstitutional claims. Personally, it doesn't affect me at all and any outrage I produce over this won't be genuine, and there are people with far more legal knowledge than myself currently pursuing this issue.

_Clitrix_ · **Posted:** Mon May 30, 2011 7:11 am

Some things are best left un-argued, and this is one of them.

TheDrop · **Joined:** May 2008 **Posts:** 7150 **Location:** uefa2012

strangelove wrote:

UnbeatableDevil wrote:

I dont see how the 2nd one was irrelevant, cause if its a annual tradition thing, its obvious hes being a attention whore.

What are your thoughts on the pledge of allegiance. the national christmas tree? easter egg hunt at the white house?
Oh yeah, christmas being a federal holiday aswell.

Scoring brownie points with people is not a factor that determines the validity of legal claims. You're free to think he was attention-whoring if you so choose to, but you should also acknowledge the frivolity of such a claim. In other words, "So?". I shrug my shoulders in your general direction.

I'm comfortable with holidays because they've become so secularized that they're no longer relevant to the faith. Christmas is essentially a celebration of consumerism and Easter is the day when children eat an obscene amount of chocolate. Furthermore, the fact that Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25th according to the Bible just adds to the amusement. The pledge thing was a response by President Eisenhower in the 50s for the godless commies in Russia. The original pledge said, "One nation indivisible". While I find the current wording a little cringe-inducing, legal battles over it never get anywhere and slow-boil away into oblivion as soon as 'ceremonial deism' comes up which absolves them from unconstitutional claims. Personally, it doesn't affect me at all and any outrage I produce over this won't be genuine, and there are people with far more legal knowledge than myself currently pursuing this issue.

Erm.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+christmas
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+easter
Whatever you say or think chrismas/easter is, its based on the Christian Church's holidays, and obviously very relevant to religion. December 25th might not be the exact date, but it has been observed as the birth date wayyyy before it was established as a federal holiday.
So a annual prayer at some random school graduation is obviously illegal is worth as much attention whoring as necessary, but a pledge that is said everyday in the morning in schools/workplaces is, erm, not worth the attention?
Its good that you dont care about these obviously very illegal things, but surely Fowler would? As ofc he's bravely trying to stop these illegal acts of religion in government. :sohappy:

Love · **Joined:** Nov 2007 **Posts:** 5336 **Location:**

_Clitrix_ wrote:

Some things are best left un-argued, and this is one of them.

No such thing.

strangelove · **Joined:** Aug 2007 **Posts:** 1255 **Location:** no

UnbeatableDevil wrote:

Erm.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+christmas
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define%3A+easter
Whatever you say or think chrismas/easter is, its based on the Christian Church's holidays, and obviously very relevant to religion. December 25th might not be the exact date, but it has been observed as the birth date wayyyy before it was established as a federal holiday.
So a annual prayer at some random school graduation is obviously illegal is worth as much attention whoring as necessary, but a pledge that is said everyday in the morning in schools/workplaces is, erm, not worth the attention?
Its good that you dont care about these obviously very illegal things, but surely Fowler would? As ofc he's bravely trying to stop these illegal acts of religion in government. :sohappy:

I never denied that they're based on religious grounds, simply argued that the holidays have become so out of touch with their faith-based roots that they're no longer viewed as orthodox celebrations for the religious. I'm not sure how many more ways I'll have to spoon-feed you that to drive the point home.

Here, educate yourself a little:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Christian

The December 25th celebration is symbolic, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

I will not justify or in any way rationalize his decision to pursue this issue because I am not him, and therefore it's impossible for me to relay his personal feelings to you. This is not a difficult concept to understand. Find his contact details and ask him yourself why he didn't pursue more pressing issues if that helps you sleep at night.

antics · **Posted:** Mon May 30, 2011 10:47 pm

+1 for strangelove

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