Been having a debate with my best bud about determinism as he fully believes that we are not in control of anything and everything we did, are doing, or will do throughout our entire life....He believes our lives from the moment of birth is one big domino effect and or ping ball machine with influences from our environment guiding everything we do right down to the microscopic detail....
The mere choice we think we made to walk to a park is influenced by either some known or unknown experience whether future present or past that drove us to act... The choice to improve ourselves or make our life better is predicated on the idea fed to us on what "improvement" and "betterment" is and also act as drivers to get it which didn't originated from ourselves.....even scratching your ass is predicated by a biological need...Not scratching your ass when it itches is predicated by a psychological need and so on and so forth...
I agree with him but not fully as I like to believe that within the framework of this idea we still have the ability to influence our surroundings at our own choosing.........I have no proof to back up my belief beside my own experience (which could be delusional) that I can influence certain events within my own life...for example studying hard and passing an exam...winning over a girl etc... Even these things my friend claims are not choices but a combination of events that drove me to act.....
What are your perception(s)..
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Last edited by BuDo on Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 2147 Location: Dead.(No Longer With Us)
I don't get it... Are you speaking as in destiny, or it's coded in our DNA, or simply saying everything is predetermined? I guess it could all seem predetermined, given that time is linear. I'd say it's pretty much proven that our conscious minds are able to make spontaneous decisions. I do believe in the power of suggestion though. Sorry to go on, would be better if you further elaborated on this idea.
Also, this seems like a fringe metaphysical theory, and the complexity of the whole thing seems like it would answer less questions, than it would create. It seems this would be more popular if we didn't have such advancements in technology to show why things actually take place, and why we respond to certain stimuli the way we do. Carrying over a simple cause and effect theory to make it fit in with something as complex as the human psyche might be a little far out there.
I don't get it... Are you speaking as in destiny, or it's coded in our DNA, or simply saying everything is predetermined? I guess it could all seem predetermined, given that time is linear. I'd say it's pretty much proven that our conscious minds are able to make spontaneous decisions. I do believe in the power of suggestion though. Sorry to go on, would be better if you further elaborated on this idea.
He doesn't believe in the conventional sense of predetermination.... as in you are destine to end up in whatever state/situation/place.....but rather that our actions within every moment are predetermine by our experiences or outside influences (whether social, biological or other) leading up to and beyond that moment...and because of that the idea of choice doesn't exist....
It doesn't matter where you end up in life...your path towards any of the million possibilities isn't controlled by you...basically we're like billiard balls bouncing back and forth off each other and the sides of the billiard table....if you like cake you didn't chose to like it because your taste buds or your upbringing already determined that before you even knew about cake...and even if you don't like cake your taste buds again or upbringing or some other pre-existing factor already determined that for you...So you never really had a choice...
Your "choice" to read this is predicated on a connection you have with this forum which was based on another predication for SRO which was based on some other predication for SRO type games or games in general and so on and so forth....
This is what he believes in for quite some time and even though I accept the reasoning I can't accept it fully... I still partially object as I think on it from time to time...
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_________________________________________________ BOWFull STR Fire level 102 -- ON A LONG BREAK..POSSIBLY FOREVER
I believe that one day your future will be predictable by analyzing lots of data about your life, you.. knowing this future may change it's course.. like if you knew that you'll get hit by a car and you knew the exact date, you'd just avoid it or stay home.. but if you don't know you'll get hit by a car.
Lets take a person's girlfriend as an example, he thinks that he chose her, but he met her at the library where he went with his friend to buy a book related to the movie they've seen last night, while the movie he saw its trailer in a recommended video on youtube then opened it, and his friend was an old friend at school who at first was anonymous to him until they sat next to each other in the exams and became friends. now take away one tiny little event off all of this, a different person sitting next to him back at school, a different recommended video pops up at youtube, or the girl coming to the library 5 minutes later... and poof, everything that will happen in your life based on this girl is gone and you'll have a totally different life, there's a reason for everything, none of those reasons include your free will, they're all about what you've been to which makes you who you are.
I remember in the matrix someone(the old lady I guess) said that you don't choose but you know why you made this choice, it's a fictional movie but this had alot of logic, that's what I believe in, we're free, but in the end we will make choices based on our life's influence on us.
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 2147 Location: Dead.(No Longer With Us)
None of that proves we are void of free will. At most it's suggestion and conditioning. Like I said, time is linear, so for us, everything will be a bunch of chain reactions. This is the only way it can be, as we cannot have multiple paths in one dimension to look back on. I get what you're saying now, but it really only has the illusion that things are this way. We cannot know any other way, but we made the decisions with our conscious mind. Making decisions based off past events is simply us learning.
Also you will never be able to collect and store data that will be able to tell a person's future with anymore accuracy than tarot cards. Other than percentages of likelihoods based off lifestyle habits.
We can hardly predict the weather, and the weather is as basic a real world system we could hope to predict. Storms don't have free will.
I believe in some determinism and fate as well, but I think we do still have a lot of choices and free will. I have thought about this before, but I can't remember what it was and my mind isn't cooperating with me atm.
Every outcome in your life will be determined by the interaction between your environment + what is ultimately your hardware.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken.
None of that proves we are void of free will. At most it's suggestion and conditioning. Like I said, time is linear, so for us, everything will be a bunch of chain reactions. This is the only way it can be, as we cannot have multiple paths in one dimension to look back on. I get what you're saying now, but it really only has the illusion that things are this way. We cannot know any other way, but we made the decisions with our conscious mind. Making decisions based off past events is simply us learning.
Also you will never be able to collect and store data that will be able to tell a person's future with anymore accuracy than tarot cards. Other than percentages of likelihoods based off lifestyle habits.
We can hardly predict the weather, and the weather is as basic a real world system we could hope to predict. Storms don't have free will.
I would need something more convincing than this to counter my friend's belief... The truth is that at every turn/moment we are at the mercy of what I like to call "push factors" or influencing factors... Even using our conscious minds to make decisions is happening because of some curiosity push factor or learning push factor which is guiding the choice for us in alignment with some survival mandate already pre-wired into our psyche....
As for weather systems, we will one day be able to predict.... A lot of things can be predicted according to modern physics... If all the variables are known that influences the rolling of a die, like force exerted, angle of roll, room temperature at the moment of roll, friction coefficient of the surface the die hits, air pressure and resistance the die encountered...you could know what number will turn up every time....It's just that getting all those permutations seem improbable (but not impossible) at this phase of human life...
If everything can be plotted and measured then free will doesn't exist..This logic appears to be sound but its hard to accept because we live in a world with so much possibilities and options that gives us what appears to be solid foundation for choices and free will...I'm trying to debunk this deterministic notion but it's hard...
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You're using inanimate objects to give this determinism credit where it isn't due. Like I said, the weather is the most basic form of system we could hope to predict in a real world scenario. We understand what creates the conditions, we just cannot gather enough data fast enough to accurately determine exactly what will happen. I'm not trying to say, we will not be able to predict the weather accurately, just saying, this is a system that lacks any kind of free will, yet we still have so much trouble predicting it. You cannot guess what a die will land on no matter all those factors, unless it is being release by a machine. A human throwing a die has too many variables and is too inconsistent.(and yet this is yet another simply thing we struggle to predict)
You're saying that even "free will" is hardcoded into determinism. If we were talking in terms of physics, I do believe this theory would have some grounds, but we're talking in terms of a living conscious being. We are much more complex than billiard balls being broke on a table. We're more complex than a tree growing in the direction of the sun, and blowing in the wind. So by saying "free will" and "consciousness" is apart of it, then you have already validated your own point, because there's nothing left to argue against. Yet this isn't the case, because to be able to have a predetermined outcome you cannot have an inconsistent variable. IF mathematically things could be figured out, then yes, we can have a predetermined outcome. Sadly, things cannot, no matter how advanced we become, no matter how many calculations we are able to process in a fraction of a second, we'll never be able to say for certain what one human being's next action will be.
You can say things like, learning is apart of determinism, or there are push factors wired in us for a survival mandate(somehow I don't get how this is part of the theory), but it's because everything that is, will always be. You cannot go back and change what has happened, so therefor you'll always be able to say the present is a collection of my past...Duh. The whole theory is more about the fact we're on a linear path, we can only make one choice, and we can only have one outcome. Then you put a spin on it, and say that we didn't make that decision freely. Yet even making an educated decision is still making a free decision.. The best way to prove this theory is incorrect is all the stupid people that do shit they know better than to do. If we could only function from a survival stand point(instinctual) then we would be more inline with animal characteristics than individuality. We just wouldn't have evolved in the manner we have if you follow the parameters of this theory.
If someone is willing to say that we itch a scratch because of a predetermined outcome based on a survival mandate, instead of it being an impulse caused by nerve irritation, which we decide to act on it. I guess there really isn't much they won't buy into, so any point brought up, can easily be swept under the rug by simply saying, well that's because you were influenced by yada yada. This would be a never ending argument, like a lot of metaphysical philosophical discussions.
Best argument against determinism and trying to predict the future, would have to be quantum mechanics.
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Last edited by Fiction on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
I remember when I was young, I knew everything about sex years before I hit puberty, and when I pictured the sexual intercourse in my mind, it felt really gross, now it feels good. where's my free will to choose what's good and what's bad?
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 2147 Location: Dead.(No Longer With Us)
Vaya wrote:
I remember when I was young, I knew everything about sex years before I hit puberty, and when I pictured the sexual intercourse in my mind, it felt really gross, now it feels good. where's my free will to choose what's good and what's bad?
Wow... You totally understand free will. Good and bad are all relative...
Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors.
and in that example free will to make choice was constrained by an inner factor.
Quote:
Best argument against determinism and trying to predict the future, would have to be quantum mechanics.
the problem with predicting the future is the lack of data, not that it's subject to change just because a person wants to, we can sometimes predict people's reactions with no special tools or deeply accurate data, with more data and experience I believe it can be done much more accurately.
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 2147 Location: Dead.(No Longer With Us)
Vaya wrote:
Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors.
and in that example free will to make choice was constrained by an inner factor.
Quote:
Best argument against determinism and trying to predict the future, would have to be quantum mechanics.
the problem with predicting the future is the lack of data, not that it's subject to change just because a person wants to, we can sometimes predict people's reactions with no special tools or deeply accurate data, with more data and experience I believe it can be done much more accurately.
Perhaps you need to study more on quantum mechanics.
Free will to make decisions that effect the out come of ones life is not the same as being able to make the mind decide that it likes mustard... Our brain is not some kind of clean slate void of survival instinct. But this doesn't mean we do not have free will. The problem you have when arguing the theory of determinism is that you cannot have free will to meet it's parameters of such a theory. You confuse having any free will and having absolute free will.
Arguing this theory is like arguing with a religious person. You cannot prove it exist, nor can you prove that it doesn't exist, as you cannot prove a negative.
I'd also like to make a request. I tried not to use logical fallacies when discussing, even though by nature it is bound to slip out, but please don't intentionally use one like Vaya just did, to rebut my argument.
We may be complex beings but we are complex beings governed by the system we live in....Even the conscious mind alone is an environment of influence onto itself...You don't chose to think, it just happens...hence there was no choice/choosing....Your consciousness operate in accordance to a complex blueprint that you yourself didn't create... All decision are linked to an influence/trigger/blueprint whether known or unknown and it's impossible to exercise "unconstrained/untainted" choices/decisions (in the truest sense) because your existence and awareness are influenced by this system/environment/universe at birth..even before...
That same system holds the exact number on all the factors that will make the die roll predictable numbers even when rolled by different people, at different times, different everything and because it seems like we will never be able to figure it out (common sayings by people who didn't live long enough to see that the earth is round), it doesn't mean that the universe doesn't hold all the permutations...
I am trying to challenge my friend not so much on future predictions but on the illusion of choice itself..Like I said earlier he's not really concern about where you will end up...but more on his belief that you don't have control over where you end up due to all the push factors... I think I will change the thread title and remove the word determinism..
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_________________________________________________ BOWFull STR Fire level 102 -- ON A LONG BREAK..POSSIBLY FOREVER
Joined: Mar 2008 Posts: 2147 Location: Dead.(No Longer With Us)
BuDo wrote:
Fiction wrote:
Text wall
We may be complex beings but we are complex beings governed by the system we live in....Even the conscious mind alone is an environment of influence onto itself...You don't chose to think, it just happens...hence there was no choice/choosing....Your consciousness operate in accordance to a complex blueprint that you yourself didn't create... All decision are linked to an influence/trigger/blueprint whether known or unknown and it's impossible to exercise "unconstrained" choices/decisions (in the truest sense) because your existence and awareness are linked to this system/environment/universe ...
That same system holds the exact number on all the factors that will make the die roll predictable numbers even when rolled by different people, at different times, different everything and because it seems like we will never be able to figure it out (common sayings by people who didn't live long enough to see that the earth is round), it doesn't mean that the universe doesn't hold all the permutations...
I am trying to challenge my friend not so much on future predictions but on the illusion of choice itself..Like I said earlier he's not really concern about where you will end up...but more on his belief that you don't have control over where you end up do to all the push factors... I think I will change the thread title and remove the word determinism..
As said before, you cannot prove or disprove it. I can say I chose to reply to your post, but you can say that I was driven to reply to your post. There is no point in arguing this any further, as you can decide to believe what you want, and anything I bring to light can be incorporated into your belief that there is no such thing as freedom of choice. Just as I cannot prove there is a God, I can not prove there isn't one as well. As long as I'm in control of the decisions I make, and understand that I have plenty of options, I'll continue with this "illusion" of freedom.(I'd like this theory more if we were talking in a political standpoint, lol)
I guess what he's saying is if freewill exist within the boundary/constructs of our universe from which we are made and are being governed by then it's not freewill in the truest sense...We are following the rules of the system set here for existence...following some mandate that makes us evolve (or devolve)...following a mandate that makes us do the things we do everyday both collectively and individually....and because of that freewill is an illusion...
My only challenge thus far is that our ability to realize that freewill is an illusion is evidence of freewill at work as it is a first and small step towards establishing a disconnect/non-reliance from/upon the system....If you didn't know you were in a prison it would be almost impossible to escape as the concept of escape wouldn't cross your mind....I will put this towards him for our next debate...I think my idea has holes in it but I can't see them yet..lol..
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_________________________________________________ BOWFull STR Fire level 102 -- ON A LONG BREAK..POSSIBLY FOREVER
Par an interesting debate, my biggest thought in regards to determinism is does it actually matter? Tomorrow is a Saturday and there's a chance the weather will be nice. If it is nice, I will go down to the park and go for a 2 or so hour walk in the sun and look at all the pretty things. Perhaps I will meet a lovely old person like I usually do and make temporary besties with them because old people are amazing. Whether or not this is predetermined by "fate", whether I lack free will or whether or not this was my own choice allowing me to make a decision doesn't bother me. As long as I get to keep doing the things I love I really couldn't give a shit either way.
If life is predetermined then there is nothing we can do to change it so why bother worrying about it. If it's not predetermined then there is no point in worrying about it anyway. I'd much rather spending my time in parks soaking up the nice Aussie sun and feeding many a duck
Par an interesting debate, my biggest thought in regards to determinism is does it actually matter? Tomorrow is a Saturday and there's a chance the weather will be nice. If it is nice, I will go down to the park and go for a 2 or so hour walk in the sun and look at all the pretty things. Perhaps I will meet a lovely old person like I usually do and make temporary besties with them because old people are amazing. Whether or not this is predetermined by "fate", whether I lack free will or whether or not this was my own choice allowing me to make a decision doesn't bother me. As long as I get to keep doing the things I love I really couldn't give a shit either way.
If life is predetermined then there is nothing we can do to change it so why bother worrying about it. If it's not predetermined then there is no point in worrying about it anyway. I'd much rather spending my time in parks soaking up the nice Aussie sun and feeding many a duck
I agree.. when you say every choice you ever have to make is predetermined, there is no point in bothering with life. What if someone reads thread, is convinced of determinism, and then chooses to sit on his ass all day because he can't control anything anyways. Is his choice to sit on his ass all day predetermined by his psyche/chemical makeup then?
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Been having a debate with my best bud about determinism as he fully believes that we are not in control of anything and everything we did, are doing, or will do throughout our entire life.
It isn't possible to control everything in our lives anyway. lulz But we have courage to choose which direction to turn. Well, "sometimes choosing not to do" something is the wisest choice. xD
Lol "people" are so dumb, this concept isn't hard at all and there isn't 2 ways to view it.
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Guild Wars 2, Isle of Janthir (NA)
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken.
Par an interesting debate, my biggest thought in regards to determinism is does it actually matter? Tomorrow is a Saturday and there's a chance the weather will be nice. If it is nice, I will go down to the park and go for a 2 or so hour walk in the sun and look at all the pretty things. Perhaps I will meet a lovely old person like I usually do and make temporary besties with them because old people are amazing. Whether or not this is predetermined by "fate", whether I lack free will or whether or not this was my own choice allowing me to make a decision doesn't bother me. As long as I get to keep doing the things I love I really couldn't give a shit either way.
If life is predetermined then there is nothing we can do to change it so why bother worrying about it. If it's not predetermined then there is no point in worrying about it anyway. I'd much rather spending my time in parks soaking up the nice Aussie sun and feeding many a duck :)
That part made me LMFAO.....you acting like an old fart....
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_________________________________________________ BOWFull STR Fire level 102 -- ON A LONG BREAK..POSSIBLY FOREVER
Par an interesting debate, my biggest thought in regards to determinism is does it actually matter? Tomorrow is a Saturday and there's a chance the weather will be nice. If it is nice, I will go down to the park and go for a 2 or so hour walk in the sun and look at all the pretty things. Perhaps I will meet a lovely old person like I usually do and make temporary besties with them because old people are amazing. Whether or not this is predetermined by "fate", whether I lack free will or whether or not this was my own choice allowing me to make a decision doesn't bother me. As long as I get to keep doing the things I love I really couldn't give a shit either way.
If life is predetermined then there is nothing we can do to change it so why bother worrying about it. If it's not predetermined then there is no point in worrying about it anyway. I'd much rather spending my time in parks soaking up the nice Aussie sun and feeding many a duck
imo it does matter, knowing whether you're in control or you have no power at all, it matters alot!
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