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I know that^ I read through that chapter again just know and noticed the fox in the background.

since when can naruto use seals. Its also hilariously the only non-rasengan related attack he managed to use...i don't know if thats sad or just him being a fail ninja...but seriously when did he learn to make seals?

That was part of the Key I think. And his mother was helping him as well. He has proven he can use more techniques.. Mass Clones. Wind Shuriken Rasengan. Sage Art. Is he not allowed to grow at all? He used to fail as a ninja yea.. but by now he's proven he is one of the best.

variations of the rasengan count as...well variations of the resengan

mass clone originated from him having the massive chakra of the fox and he learned it in the first chapter of the manga.

I'm still not sure what Sage Art is but it takes about as much skill and strategy as the Sharingan. Probably less since naruto can just warp in a sage clone whenever he needs a pick up. I don't really consider power up techniques a sign of skill especially if all he does with it is just throw more rasengans...

He's stronger now for sure but he doesn't think or approach fights with any more skill than when he started. He just clones and rasengans. Any battle he wins makes the villain seem stupid for falling for just vapid tactics.

im gonna stop with the haterade though cause lately naruto has been less shitty than normal, even less shitty than BLEACH

Amen for that ...

I do agree he needs more fancy ninjutsu, but the wind rasengan makes me feel better about it. He did something even the 4th and Jiraiya couldn't do and made it look easy, added an Element to it.

he was only able to do it because of the massive chakra of the fox allowing him to make clones and learn the technique much faster. Minato was fairly young when he died and while jiraiya was older he learned the technique from minato and i doubt he bothered the to spend the time trying to complete it that late in his life. Not to mention that most of the time even now naruto needs clones to help him make the rasengan because of his lack of mastery of chakra control. Had the 4th survived and jiraiya committed the time they would've no doubt been able to pull off the same technique seeing as they are much better ninjas than naruto in every way...

He mastered Sage Chakra.. one of the hardest to do and what your excuse for that? Even pain couldn't control it. Has to have a perfect balance otherwise he'd turn into a toad.. Whats the excuse for that? Naruto was a laughable excuse for a ninja, but he's grown and even learned to control his chakra unless you haven't been paying attention.

correct me if im wrong but even while in sage mode he needed clones to assist him with making rasengans showing he hasn't mastered the technique. I said before i don't get sage mode because even though naruto can't manipulate his chakra well he is somehow able to do this impossible balancing act that seems to require a pretty high level of chakra manipulation mastery. So yeah he can do it, it doesn't make any sense though and all he does while he's in it is just throw around more rasengans and clones. When you think about it Pein lost to a switching log trick and the massive chakra provided by the 9 tails. How much sense does it make for the guy who annihilated the guy who beat all 3 of the Sannin at once to lose to a cheap trick like that. The same trick he used to beat Kazaku, a ninja who fought against the first.

Naruto is powerful at this point, that is undeniable, and with his recent acquisition and total control over the fox's chakra he's even more powerful but that doesn't make him a good ninja. If you were to give all that power to several other characters they think of far more creative and impressive ways to use it. I can't even imagine what Shikimaru would be able to come up with if he had all that chakra. Watching naruto clone up and rasengan everything till it stops moving is even less interesting than watching Sasuke pull some new BS jutsu out of his eye...

That's a contradiction.. He's powerful.. and now even more powerful. He's beaten pain as you stated who beat the same guy that beat all 3 sannin at once. How does that not make him a good ninja? That would mean there is no such thing as a good Ninja in Naruto.. Being smart doesn't make you good. Being able to over power and out smart them makes you good as he has done many times. It's already been said that without the Fox's chakra, he still has massive amounts. It just seems like you got yourself into a debate and keep making ridiculous attempts to win it.. Naruto has proven he's a good Ninja. I don't see how he hasn't. There's not really anything to prove.

oh dear, you are always buckets of fail

To say that just because naruto is powerful means he's a great ninja implies that to be a great ninja all you need is lots of power. By that logic Shikamaru is a horrible ninja, yet he was the only one who was chosen to graduate from the tournament. Now why would they do that...

maybe because having alot of power, which is what being powerful means, doesn't make you a great ninja. It makes you a guy with alot of power. Think about it like this, even bruce lee would lose to a guy who is 1000x stronger and faster for the simple reason that he would be overpowered but that doesn't make the other guy a great fighter does it?

Give narutos massive fox chakra reserves to Kakashi, Tsunade, Shikamaru, Lee, Tenten, Kankuro, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Sarutobi, Gai, Itachi, Kisame, Deidara, Zabuza, Haku, Neji etc and they would all be able to defeat naruto because they are all better ninjas. They think more, they have mastered their respective arts to a point where they can make up any short comings, they have a much better tactical thinking while in mid combat. Naruto falls short of all of those characters and more, the only skill he's displayed is rasengan and clones. The last time naruto actually won a fight with skill was when he was fighting Neji...everytime since that he's relied on the fox's massive chakra to make up for his lack of skill. Please keep in mind that shadow clones are forbidden because of the enormous amount of chakra they need. Thats why you normally never see characters use more than 1 if at all. Nauro pops them out like nobodies business. Even when he was fighting Pein if he hadn't let the fox get that far out of control he would've never broken out of the mini-moon Pein exhausted his chakra to make.

So like i said he's powerful, he's powerful meaning he has lots of power. The kid has a near limitless supply of chakra. A good ninja though? No, he sucks but he'll always win because no one can outlast naruto or keep up with the chakra of the nine tails...

EDIT: my bad, forgot naruto used the fox's chakra to overcome all the seals Neji put on his chakra. So i guess naruto has never won a fight using skill, maybe kiba but he did do that fart trick which while funny hardly counts as skill...

I guess naruto really is the shittiest ninja in the series. Wonder why he beat pain who destroyed the whole village in a single technique.. must have been dumb luck. Should rename it "Lucky bastard child"

they really should...

The seal Naruto used, was the one in the key which Minato left behind for Naruto (Same seal as Rikudou Sennin used). Damn Minato, damn...


He beated Pain after he used a shitload of chakra, furthermore Pain had no killer intent against Naruto. As you can see here: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/435/015/ , Pain could've killed Naruto here (Replace the hands with head). Unlike Jiraiya, Naruto had intel on Pain (Katsuya) and had the Frog Army to back him up. And even at the end, Nagato sacrificed himself to revive the people he killed in Konoha.

I can see Xemn is a Naruto (as in character) hater.

Everybody in Naruto sees Naruto as a sort of hero now, if he was just lucky, wouldn't they just despise him?

You're not an emotional person at all Xemn, that's why you don't really understand Naruto.

Now, you've got your opinion, and that's fine, so i hope you let me have mine, and i know it sounds shitty, it really does, but i'm not gonna argue it if you're gonna write a page long post >.<''

but if u keep it simple i can talk about, rather just keep reading w.e u guys decide to talk about tho

what do you mean your not going to argue his oppinion you just have

im giving mine, he has given his, thats all :o

Thats how a white man does it

Its not that im not emotional its just that i'm only willing to suspend my disbelief within the boundaries that the manga lays out. When characters start breaking those boundaries simplistically (ichigo VS. ulquiorra) or contradictorily (naruto mastering sage mode but still not mastering chakra manipulation enough to make a rasengan without clones) i start to lose interest in the character. There's no tension in the story anymore because there's no sense. Lack of tension reduces interest in the main character as well as the villain because you know they are more victims of plotkai than anything.

Watching Jiraiya fight Pein was one of my favorite fights in the manga. Kishimoto shows very clearly that Jiraiya is a master tactician during that fight and despite his great disadvantage he single-handedly is able to capable of taking on not one or two but three Peins at once and figuring out their strengths and weaknesses. He was gathering intel and fighting an extremely difficult opponent at the same time and even after he went into sage mode and used some very high level jutsu he still was no match for all 6 of them and eventually died (maybe, everyone seems to come back to life). That was exciting, the outcome of that fight was not clear or obvious from the start, that character didn't use some simple technique to make him OP enough to just wtfpwn everyone around him. Compare that with the naruto VS pein fight and all you get are clones and rasengan and some very OP fox powers, guess who wins. Its a slap in the face to Jiraiya and a slap in the face to the reader...

i know you didn't want a long post but people seem to think that im just emotionless or the only emotion i have is anger but really this is an issue of story telling and i wanted to clarify that

It's been a month or two since I last read these two mangas. Is it a good time to catch up?

it's alright mate, i'd consider that a medium post :p

well, i totally agree with this post of yours tho, tbh, i find that i was so caught up in seeing how strong naruto would be in his sage mode that i totally forgot about that even tho naruto did a nice strat with the red smoke i do understand what you mean better now, but i still think that naruto some times had these ideas nobody expected him to have, and the way he is, the way he faces everything balances, in my opinion, the fact that he doesn't have that genius blood vein popping up in him, he does have a lot of merith, not so much on how he approaches challenges or whatever technically but yes emotionally, and that's what gets him to succeed on mastering whatever or coming up with new techniques, it evens things out between so called "genius" ninjas and Naruto, still even after all that, he's starting to come up with great stuff on his own, you guys are totally understimating the work he's done WHILE mastering sage mode with the rasengans, seriously, the techniques from the last chapter are AMAZING. I agree with you on the tension part as well, totally, the same happens between people from different sex's, that tension is what makes things "spicy", not gonna get deeper into that, anyways, for example for me, the clones thingy makes perfect sense, after all naruto has surpassed Minato and Jiraya now in the rasengan techniques department, exactly because he uses clones that way in my opinion, it is something that for me doesn't take any value from him, if he can use a shortcut, why would he go the hardest way? (without clones)
I think you're giving too much meaning for him to have to use clones for rasengan, making it seem like he's less because of that, wich in my opinion, not at all, see the advantages he's taking of it now, and it doesn't mean he is so bad at the chakra part, he might not be as good as jiraya was for example, but can you remember how long it took for Naruto to master the rasengan technique? Now, it all comes down to his great advantage, the kyubi's chakra, but that's where what i talked previously gets in, he's a project, u could say he's lucky for that but that doesn't make him any less than the awsome he is.
I do understand what you mean, and myself, i like more to see tactical battles, not just direct hits battles, but so far naruto's fighting has been nice for me ^^

Plus, Naruto is indeed lucky but saying lucky kinda sucks. As we can see from the latest manga chapter (watchout, spoiler coming up), Naruto seems to have his path layed out

Ice ^ I think you pretty much summed it up. My only disagreement I had with Xemn in the first place was whether Naruto is a good Ninja or not. I think he is as he has proven as much with all the challenges he's overcome. And yes that was a bad ass technique in the last issue.

No matter how much skill he have he is strong,of course with some fuuton skill he would be more but i guess the author let that for the time when naruto will be an adult.

at this rate naruto is deff gonna be a real legend