now personally im agnostic, raised catholic but it didnt take. i believe there may be some sort of higher being out there, but at the moment it doesnt matter to me. Barotix, faith and logic can coexist: something had to set off the big bang - be it god, or hell, aliens. either way there is some sort of higher power out there that set this whole mess in motion. idk, i see logic and a little faith there.
It had to coexist for you because you're an Agnostic Theist. Crop an A in front of the first T in theist and you have atheist. I am an atheist. (for granps: IN MY OPINION!!1!1) Faith is unnecessary and irrational.
The goal of government is to protect the property rights of people. I do not need Government to tell me I should not steal or kill. Under Government certain natural laws are outlawed. You must now ask why those laws exist before continuing this discussion. My answer is it benefits you.
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Live your life well and do no wrong (unless necessary) to your fellow man. Why do no harm (unless necessary) to your fellow man? Because it benefits you.
Every action (good and bad) has consequences. Because of Modern Government god(s) are no longer necessary.
I hope what i wrote earlier cleared up your misconceptions about god spreading fear, and everything else you wrote.
Because you keep making up more for your own personal benefit.
Words like 'irrational' and 'rational' are not defined by your opinion. They exist outside of you, Barotix. You may continue to misuse the English language or not.
The goal of government is to protect the property rights of people. I do not need Government to tell me I should not steal or kill. Under Government certain natural laws are outlawed. You must now ask why those laws exist before continuing this discussion. My answer is it benefits you.
Quote:
Live your life well and do no wrong (unless necessary) to your fellow man. Why do no harm (unless necessary) to your fellow man? Because it benefits you.
Every action (good and bad) has consequences. Because of Modern Government god(s) are no longer necessary.
1]I hope what i wrote earlier cleared up your misconceptions about god spreading fear, and everything else you wrote.
2]Because you keep making up more for your own personal benefit.
3]My video still stands so im gonna post it again.
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1]In order for "gods" to spread fear they must first be real. God(s) are man's agent used to spread fear in order to control the people .Without their false presence we would have surely been an unruly bunch. Now they aren't necessary. Their time has passed. Let logic and reason guide us into the future. 2] How is paraphrasing political philosophers making up more for my own benefit? 3]Do I need to refute every point this video makes like the last one you posted? Oh FFS he uses Faith and tries to pass it as Science.
@I see what I did. I have been misusing rational. In that case: Faith is illogical.
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I personally believe that God is in the process of revealing His nature to mankind.
How and why? (I'm sure you were expecting that question).
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If I were to say I have a friend. My friend is "X". Let's say "X" is invisible and promised to take me to a fun place when I die. Let's say you can only see "X" if you believe. Now let's say "X" gets very angry when I break the law.
DOES THIS MAKE SENSE (the above quote), YES OR NO. If someone came up to you and told you a story like that would you think they're crazy...
Would you call a person like this crazy?
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You work from point A to reach point Z. Religion, the supernatural, and mysticism all screw B-Y and jump straight to Z without any real explanation. I cannot agree with something that is not backed by some form of advanced reasoning.
Does faith require further investigation?
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Are leaps of faith logical?
Are they and in what context?
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"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.
Einstein did not believe in "God" as you do.
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He had no faith in any religion instituted among men at all. Well, except for his "religious-like" application and appreciation of science.
Neither side can claim Einstein. He was not atheist but he was not a follower of Judaism or Christianity. He did not believe in God (in modern context, the personal God). He believed in what was called a "new religion." I don't understand Einstein's point when he makes statements like that but it's a nice fact (that he did not believe in God as modern theist do; therefore, they cannot claim him as their own like they do Charles Darwin. [they don't claim Darwin very well]) to throw out. I don't think there is a word to describe Einstein but he was not like you, blurred, or mainstream fundamentalist. He was not like me either.
In the context that we use God today Einstein does not believe.
1]In order for "gods" to spread fear they must first be real. 2]God(s) are man's agent used to spread fear in order to control the people .
1]I have stated my stance on this: They aren't real. 2]Man created them to spread fear because it was the best form of control (in the form of Government) at that time. People still use it but now leaders don't have to worry about destroying competing cultures with competing ideas that might lead the people "astray."
_________________
Maddening
Last edited by Barotix on Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm trying to read what you say, Barotix. Trying to understand. There is a problem though. I'm sure you can relate.
I find your statements about believers provocative and objectionable. Part of me wants to demand that you desist from lumping groups of people together to defame them. It is similar to racism. It is okay to have strong opinions and to hold onto your beliefs and when I read behind the words you speak and find the man (not the words) I know that you do not intend things this way.
Maybe if you toned it down a bit and instead of saying or implying that a group of people are irrational and illogical (or other broad, sweeping generalizations) you simply stated your opinion it would be easier for me to hear you.
Extremist. Are. Illogical. I still hold the concept of Faith illogical; however, using a generalization to defame the whole was not my intention. I am sorry if I came across in that manner. I can (and do) get lost in my rhetoric.
To think I could have summed that up with 3 words. It must be all the Dawkins I have been eating lately.
*REPOST
Spoiler!
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I personally believe that God is in the process of revealing His nature to mankind.
How and why? (I'm sure you were expecting that question).
Quote:
Quote:
If I were to say I have a friend. My friend is "X". Let's say "X" is invisible and promised to take me to a fun place when I die. Let's say you can only see "X" if you believe. Now let's say "X" gets very angry when I break the law.
DOES THIS MAKE SENSE (the above quote), YES OR NO. If someone came up to you and told you a story like that would you think they're crazy...
Would you call a person like this crazy?
Quote:
You work from point A to reach point Z. Religion, the supernatural, and mysticism all screw B-Y and jump straight to Z without any real explanation. I cannot agree with something that is not backed by some form of advanced reasoning.
1]In order for "gods" to spread fear they must first be real. 2]God(s) are man's agent used to spread fear in order to control the people .
1]I have stated my stance on this: They aren't real. 2]Man created them to spread fear because it was the best form of control (in the form of Government) at that time. People still use it but now leaders don't have to worry about destroying competing cultures with competing ideas that might lead the people "astray."
1)Evolution is not real.
2)Government of all types and their laws almost always been around. Most had harsh physical penalties. Using God to bring fear is not an excuse. If they feared him, he wouldn't of gotten crucified by Jews / Romans.
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 9841 Location: US - Illidan
Grandpa wrote:
You've lumped monotheists (ONLY Abrahamic religions) in with polytheists (ALL other religions).
just browsing through and noticing errors, Grandpa you should be aware that there are more monotheists religions that the Abrahamic ones, first one that comes to mind is Sikhism and for awhile im pretty sure Egyptians worshiped the sun god as the only god.
_________________ signatures by Hostage Co. <3 ~PoP is DEAD! My sTyLe is Supa-Flat!!~
You've lumped monotheists (ONLY Abrahamic religions) in with polytheists (ALL other religions).
just browsing through and noticing errors, Grandpa you should be aware that there are more monotheists religions that the Abrahamic ones, first one that comes to mind is Sikhism and for awhile im pretty sure Egyptians worshiped the sun god as the only god.
Thank you. There was a period of time where Egypt was lead by a monotheist who believed in the god Aton, but I was not thinking of Sikhism. Should have said "Ancient" in there somewhere. Oops.
It's frustrating especially when so many people are coming from so many different directions. Barotix, I can agree with your sentiments against extremists. But even that is a sweeping generalization.
Saying your opponent fails to convince is fine. Saying a premise can not be supported is fine. Pointing out contradictions is reasonable. If I tried to prove my point by stomping my feet and cursing it would be reasonable to conclude that I should fail.
When I entered the recent portion of this thread my point was that Abraham existed. He exists equally as well as does Napoleon and Ramses II. We are able to quote him accurately. My implication then and now is that it is reasonable to believe this.
Can people choose what they believe in their hearts? I doubt it. Maybe. I'm talking about deathbed beliefs, heartfelt. When all the head belief is swept away. I know of no reasonable conclusive explanation of how the universe came into existence other than what God has declared. I believe that He is not a liar. You have challenged this belief by saying that it is not scientifically provable. That's okay by me.
I like the poster above the best:
KylieMinogue wrote:
Do I believe in God? YES!!!!
The thing about Einstein is that he was often misunderstood. What I did was quote him directly, and we both assumed he existed. We were somehow able to avoid the absurd argument about his existence. So then both Einstein and Abraham existed. We are able to quote them accurately. How? Did I hear him personally? Did you? What scientific evidence would be admissible regarding their existence?
Let's get it straight, I'm not trying to prove God exists any more than I am trying to disprove that Einstein existed. But I am free to subject any argument that demands that He does not exist to the same scrutiny that has been advanced against His existence. In other words it is not belief that is in question, rather it is disbelief I hold in disdain.
Barotix wrote:
*REPOST
Spoiler!
Quote:
I personally believe that God is in the process of revealing His nature to mankind.
How and why? (I'm sure you were expecting that question). Answer: No, I was not expecting the question. It was a statement of belief. My point was that you can not lump me into any known religion or established category. My statement was "I am a monotheistic modalistic monarchianist." The primary belief is that God is One (as expressed in the Shema), "Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad".
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If I were to say I have a friend. My friend is "X". Let's say "X" is invisible and promised to take me to a fun place when I die. Let's say you can only see "X" if you believe. Now let's say "X" gets very angry when I break the law.
DOES THIS MAKE SENSE (the above quote), YES OR NO. If someone came up to you and told you a story like that would you think they're crazy...
Would you call a person like this crazy? Answer: This is another example of rhetoric. Your example is as much a mockery of my religion as the Jesus is a Zombie poster. If the definition of insanity is repeating something that has failed over and over with the expectation of success each time, yes, you are crazy.
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You work from point A to reach point Z. Religion, the supernatural, and mysticism all screw B-Y and jump straight to Z without any real explanation. I cannot agree with something that is not backed by some form of advanced reasoning.
You hold non-linear thinking in disdain? Challenge me and I will come up with a dozen examples of this type of thinking for your elucidation.
Does faith require further investigation?
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Are leaps of faith logical?
Are they and in what context? It would take a leap of faith on my part to try to account for the total amount of helium in the universe. Scientists are able to prove conclusively that there are a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion atoms of helium in the universe. We know that nuclear fusion in the sun fuses two hydrogen atoms and releases a photon. We know that 24% of the suns mass is helium. The problem comes when we try to explain how that much helium was converted from hydrogen in the given timeframe. The sun (no star for that matter) isn't hot enough. The problem expands faster than the universe itself when we consider the total amount of helium in the universe and how it came about. There is no rational explanation for our observations.
There would also need to be a leap of faith on my part to understand how the stars in the outer parts of the galaxy travel around the center at the same speeds as the inner stars. It seems to defy gravity.
You try to define "leaps of faith" as religious beliefs. Your argument is circular if I agree to the definition. But if we simply define faith as belief in the unseen, clearly the problem you point to is not limited to the domain of Theology only.
*WTB Answers.
I've given my answers but do not expect you to find them convincing. Feel better now? I hope yes because I know it can be frustrating sometimes. What do I win?
@I see what I did. I have been misusing rational. In that case: Faith is illogical.
Martin Luther wrote:
Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight
Faith in God was never meant to be logical or anything like that, for God wants our faith in him. If he was proved by logic/facts we would believe in God because of our faith in facts/ logic not because of our faith in the lord the almighty.
I see no inherent problem between trying to understand WHAT and HOW (facts and science) and trying to understand WHY (theology and God's purpose). Statements designed to discourage my attempt to understand the 'why' of creation fail. Statements that such attempts are illogical, irrational or insane only confound me.
To observe the magnificence of creation without awe is illogical. To stand aside with practiced indifference and yawn at even such a minor miracle as the rising sun strikes me as the true wonder.
When I turn my mind to the wonders examined by science, the things observed, I am only further dumbfounded. Stupefied, I ponder the facts. My belief is strengthened by the marvels around me.
Can we not agree with Einstein on whether he considered himself an atheist:
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"I'm not an atheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what that is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the most intelligent human toward God."
That humble attitude was taught to Einstein as he considered creation. I don't understand "how". If I did, my search would be over.
Telling me that understanding "who" means that I am no longer capable of understanding "how" or "what" is preposterous.
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 4599 Location: Studying Computer Science, Vienna
Fear of God has been understood in a wrong way.
Fear of God means to be afraid of doing things against His will. God intended this fear for us. Not the irrational phenomena people describe as "fear".
_________________ Carry your cross, and I'll carry mine.
1]In order for "gods" to spread fear they must first be real. 2]God(s) are man's agent used to spread fear in order to control the people .
1]I have stated my stance on this: They aren't real. 2]Man created them to spread fear because it was the best form of control (in the form of Government) at that time. People still use it but now leaders don't have to worry about destroying competing cultures with competing ideas that might lead the people "astray."
1)Evolution is not real.
2)Government of all types and their laws almost always been around. Most had harsh physical penalties. Using God to bring fear is not an excuse. If they feared him, he wouldn't of gotten crucified by Jews / Romans.
Most had Harsh physical laws that involved reverence to deities. Do you honestly think the Romans believed in your god during the prophet's time? You think the Jews thought Jesus was god? They killed him for what they considered to be blasphemy. You go around in modern times claiming to be the son of a god and let's see how far you get.
You might want to look up Mithra.
Quote:
Fear of God means to be afraid of doing things against His will.
Why give something free will if it's going to go around and disobey you anyway. It makes no sense. Deities make no sense. Religion makes no sense.
Obviously i dident come from a monkey, read everything i posted about evolution in my previous pages. It was a joke to XemnasXD. Take the chill pill. Just because you guys cant prove evolution dont mean shit.
For me, there is no God, but I don't hate religion either. I think it is good that people believe in something, but when they get extremistic, I think it gets too far. I sometimes see religion as the start of some wars, but it can also help to stop wars.
Everyone should (not) believe what he or she likes. There is no ONE thing to believe in.
Please do tell how it can stop wars. ^^ If anything, it's only the cause of it. It's not like the muslims are gonna come together in harmony with Christians.
Please also explain how Evolution is not real? I am a firm believer in Science because there's no logical sense in a "God" hence why Bibles are "Man-made" aka the government to keep control in a world.
Maybe the longest time ago there was a God who just created one particle for the universe and had let that particle become of how we all are today. How do you explain the cellular form of skin? Of our blood cells? It is most certainly NOT made of wine or bread, that's for sure.
Obviously i dident come from a monkey, read everything i posted about evolution in my previous pages. It was a joke to XemnasXD. Take the chill pill. Just because you guys cant prove evolution dont mean shit.
They've already proved Evolution. With the most logical sense. Logic > Bible.
Please also explain how Evolution is not real? I am a firm believer in Science because there's no logical sense in a "God" hence why Bibles are "Man-made" aka the government to keep control in a world.
Maybe the longest time ago there was a God who just created one particle for the universe and had let that particle become of how we all are today. How do you explain the cellular form of skin? Of our blood cells? It is most certainly NOT made of wine or bread, that's for sure.
I'll explain it when i get home from college. I'm about to leave my house. I'll edit this message.
How do you explain the cellular form of skin? Of our blood cells? It is most certainly NOT made of wine or bread, that's for sure.
You obviously know very little about the bible and religion.
Maybe because I don't believe in any of it..Or I don't care enough to even read any of it anymore. I read the Bible and IMO it's a load of junk..... -_- People today could've made something a little bit more logical or even just a little common sense.
And the "Day of Apocolypse? That's a joke. I can't wait for that day and year to come.
December 21 2012 12-21-12
When that day comes, people in this real world will be much more Agnostic than anything because Nothing will happen. Hence that because they'll become skeptical.
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