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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Ningyotsukai-san wrote:
After the Soul Society Arc, 've been losing more 'n more interest in Bleach (Turn Back the Pendulum was nice, though) ...
I'm just glad I got into OP ^ ^

I can't really get into OP. I seen the first couple episodes of the Anime, and it just didn't click.

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its called plotkai...and its worse than naruto cause Ichigo pulls this stuff out of his ass all the time and gets extremely OP as a result completely upsetting the power balance...sure he looked cool but those chapters were like a big "i SUCK AT WRITING STORY AND CHARACTERS" message to all the fans...

Ichigo is the only one whos power constantly Grows. All the other Captains are pretty much the same as when they were introduced. Ichigo has been strong since he got his Shinigami powers, he just hasn't been able to use them to his full potential or even control Reiatsu. One could argue that his power continues to increase due to his battle experience. He learns as he fights. Much better than DBZ in which case power levels went from around like 1000 to 100 million...

As for Naruto, The only upset is how they focused on a Few character in Shippuuden and left the others in the Dust. For instance. Neji, Rock Lee, Shikimaru. Whom were all big players before Shippuuden. They were some of the strongest and now they are hardly mentioned.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:30 pm 
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Blackdragon6 wrote:

Ichigo is the only one whos power constantly Grows. All the other Captains are pretty much the same as when they were introduced. Ichigo has been strong since he got his Shinigami powers, he just hasn't been able to use them to his full potential or even control Reiatsu. One could argue that his power continues to increase due to his battle experience. He learns as he fights. Much better than DBZ in which case power levels went from around like 1000 to 100 million...

As for Naruto, The only upset is how they focused on a Few character in Shippuuden and left the others in the Dust. For instance. Neji, Rock Lee, Shikimaru. Whom were all big players before Shippuuden. They were some of the strongest and now they are hardly mentioned.


See this is where things are wrong. Ichigo fought against the captains, not only did he fight them but he beat or came close to beating several of them. Later on though we see the captains fighting Arrancarr that even Ichigo was having trouble with, and they're doing it with relative ease. If you want to say the captains haven't grown then explain this...

During soul society Ichigo=Kenpachi
During Karakura town Ichigo<Grimmjow
During Heuco Mundo Ichigo>Grimmjow
During Heuco Mundo Grimmjow (#6)<Nnitoria(#5)
During Heuco Mundo Nnitoria< Kenpachi

????

So in that time between arcs we see Ichigo gaining a tremendous amount of power. Its exactly like DBZ in that he goes from not being able to handle a fight with Grimmjow to beating Grimmjow to beating Uliqoria who was the only known espada to have evolved twice and displayed far greater destructive abilities than the #1-3 espada. If we're to believe and follow the ranks than the #1-3 are still stronger than Uliqoria despite his massive power gain and therefore stronger than ichigo without his uberhax hollow form. But the 1-3 lost to the very same captains that had trouble killing Ichigo during the soul society arc...see what i mean. There is no consistency in power. As the manga progresses Ichigo faces tougher and tougher foes, each one miles stronger than the last and each time he wins. Also the captains face some of the same foes and they win as well only since they don't have hollow forms there newfound extreme power is explained in other ways (two hands lulz)

If the captains strength doesn't grow like you said then there is no way Kenpachi, who tied with Soul Society Strength Ichigo, should've never been able to fight evenly with Nnitoria for so long. I find it hard to believe that people who've been alive for centuries are suddenly gaining power as fast as Ichigo either, in fact its noted early on the series that this quick power gain is what makes Ichigo so special and different and why they're all impressed by him.

The only difference between this and DBZ is that power isn't displayed in numerical form but both these series suffer from extreme, unexplained growths in power that diminish its quality...i like to see characters grow and develop as much as the next guy but Kubo ignored this in favor of quick fixes and then forgets to apply them elsewhere...oh ichigo is so strong now cause he's got hollow form...well why are all the captains so strong now too :? ...oh tousen pwns arrancar like its nobodies business...then why did he get killed by a Lt. lvl character :? ...oh Aizen has the power to cut down captains with ease...then why didn't he just kill them all in Soul Society Arc, he didn't even need the Espada he made cause they all died without killing anyone and he killed the last one himself :?

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm 
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I still stand by that Ichigo has had the power since He became a Shinigami. He just lacks the experience to use it to it's full and when he needs it the most it answers him so to speak. And his hollow side can probably use his power to his full which would explain the huge boost when he masks up.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:11 pm 
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It's been speculated that Kenpachi didn't go all out with Ichigo.

Just speculation though.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Blackdragon6 wrote:
I still stand by that Ichigo has had the power since He became a Shinigami. He just lacks the experience to use it to it's full and when he needs it the most it answers him so to speak. And his hollow side can probably use his power to his full which would explain the huge boost when he masks up.


you can stand by it all you want that doesn't change the facts and contradictions i listed above...

also if kenpachi didn't go all out on ichigo why he he collapse after the fight, i mean he may have just been enjoying it and not wanting to go all out but when that happened with Nnitoria he just went two hands and ended it...

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:52 am 
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tl;dr

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:36 am 
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XemnasXD wrote:
Blackdragon6 wrote:
I still stand by that Ichigo has had the power since He became a Shinigami. He just lacks the experience to use it to it's full and when he needs it the most it answers him so to speak. And his hollow side can probably use his power to his full which would explain the huge boost when he masks up.


you can stand by it all you want that doesn't change the facts and contradictions i listed above...

also if kenpachi didn't go all out on ichigo why he he collapse after the fight, i mean he may have just been enjoying it and not wanting to go all out but when that happened with Nnitoria he just went two hands and ended it...

Anime is all full of Contradiction. Ichigo is a combat evolver. What your saying is that he shouldn't get stronger by fighting stronger opponents. He in fact did get a hole ripped in his chest and has lost battles before.. Coming back stronger is in his character. If a character didn't evolve in an Anime then he wouldn't stand out.
And I mean the captains are pretty much the same as they haven't grown in an outstanding way like Ichigo.
Ichigo's Strength isn't that Surprising considering Ulqiorra #4 put a hole in his Chest without to much strain technically killing him and Captain Shunsui Took out Stark #1 without any near fatal wounds.

Who ever said Noitora could kill Grimjow? They haven't fought once.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Blackdragon6 wrote:
XemnasXD wrote:
Blackdragon6 wrote:
I still stand by that Ichigo has had the power since He became a Shinigami. He just lacks the experience to use it to it's full and when he needs it the most it answers him so to speak. And his hollow side can probably use his power to his full which would explain the huge boost when he masks up.


you can stand by it all you want that doesn't change the facts and contradictions i listed above...

also if kenpachi didn't go all out on ichigo why he he collapse after the fight, i mean he may have just been enjoying it and not wanting to go all out but when that happened with Nnitoria he just went two hands and ended it...

Anime is all full of Contradiction. Ichigo is a combat evolver. What your saying is that he shouldn't get stronger by fighting stronger opponents. He in fact did get a hole ripped in his chest and has lost battles before.. Coming back stronger is in his character. If a character didn't evolve in an Anime then he wouldn't stand out.
And I mean the captains are pretty much the same as they haven't grown in an outstanding way like Ichigo.
Ichigo's Strength isn't that Surprising considering Ulqiorra #4 put a hole in his Chest without to much strain technically killing him and Captain Shunsui Took out Stark #1 without any near fatal wounds.

Who ever said Noitora could kill Grimjow? They haven't fought once.


Im not saying he shouldn't get stronger by fighting stronger oppenents, my problem is the way he gets stronger. Ichigo is a boring hero because he's unstoppable, the same way Aizen is a boring Villian because he's unstoppable. This is like talking to a brick wall so after this im not reply but my problem stems from his DBZ growth. Ichigo basically goes super saiyan and if ever that should fell SURPRISE!, theres a Super Saiyan 2 WHOA! and then he just wtfpwns whoever is in his way. I really don't see how you can read Bleach and watch DBZ and not see the obvious comparisons with the way characters get stronger and unstoppable.

Also i don't see why you keep saying the captains haven't gotten stronger when we see them fighting opponents that Ichigo had to get stronger to face and Ichigo beat the captains, basically. When the Espada showed up they wtfpwnd ichigo and the captains, the captains had to "Lift the Limit" in the human world to fight Arrancar that weren't even close Espada level and yet chapters later we see them taking on Espada like its no big deal. How do you not see that unexplained growth in power. In order to fight the Espada ichigo haad to learn and perfect his hollow form which gave him a massive power boost. The Captains, the very same ones that Ichigo beat or came close to beating during the soul society arc never gained such a massive power jump and yet they are fighting Espada that Ichigo was having trouble with. But you're saying they've been the same strength the whole time. brick wall :palm:

also Nnitoria is stronger than Grimmjow based on the numbers...see how i put them in there. Nnitoria is the #5 which is a lower number than 6 so it means that he's stronger than Grimmjow. Even though Kenpachi tied which ichigo during the soul society arc and collapsed (before ichigo even got his hollow/bankai powers) he is able to fight Nnitoria and defeat him with ease, a opponent who is supposed to be stronger than Grimmjow and Ichigo couldn't be grimmjow without learning hollow and bankai powers...but you see don't see that as a clear display that the captains have gotten stronger without any explanation... :palm:

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:38 pm 
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I don't really think the captains got a power boost. They "trained" for this battle, but not much more than what they already had. The had to use limit release earlier, but this time, there's no humans in the vicinity. They can truly go all out now and not worry about evaporating nearby innocents. Also, Kenpachi is a simple man that loves to fight. He prob just didn't want to kill ichigo so pretended to fall so ichigo could escape and fight him again. Everyone always knew how insanely powerful Kenpachi is. He learned about 2-handed kendo long ago, he just never used it for the reasons he stated. In short, during the Soul Society arc, I don't think any of the Captains were really trying against ichigo.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:22 pm 
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sounds like you're making lots of excuses and speculation for something that should've been stated or explained and wasn't...so none of what you said was fact...just speculation and guess work. Where was it stated the captains trained for their fight with the Arrancarr and then again for their fight with espada and if you're saying they trained then how can you say they didn't get a power boost? Where was it stated that even after lifting the limit on their powers they were still holding back? Why would Byakuya hold back when he was fighting Ichigo when he promised he would destroy him?

Theres a certain point where believing something is implied becomes changing events to conform or explain later parts of the story. Your guess work and speculation isn't implied anywhere in the manga, these are plot holes and plot holes are ok sometimes but Kubo makes a whole manga out of them. Its frustrating to see people look at plot holes and just keep grinning and pretending that they're not really there by just buying into BS...

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:35 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:56 pm 
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i totally agree with Xemn

afterall, ONE espada should be ZOMGWTFRUNBAI and afterall, they were an easy task.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:30 pm 
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XemnasXD wrote:
sounds like you're making lots of excuses and speculation for something that should've been stated or explained and wasn't...so none of what you said was fact...just speculation and guess work. Where was it stated the captains trained for their fight with the Arrancarr and then again for their fight with espada and if you're saying they trained then how can you say they didn't get a power boost? Where was it stated that even after lifting the limit on their powers they were still holding back? Why would Byakuya hold back when he was fighting Ichigo when he promised he would destroy him?

Theres a certain point where believing something is implied becomes changing events to conform or explain later parts of the story. Your guess work and speculation isn't implied anywhere in the manga, these are plot holes and plot holes are ok sometimes but Kubo makes a whole manga out of them. Its frustrating to see people look at plot holes and just keep grinning and pretending that they're not really there by just buying into BS...



1) They did say they were gonna train. We need to get stronger, upcoming battle. Who goes into an upcoming battle without training.

2) Lifting their powers but still holding back is an assumption, but not a big one if you think about it. They fought over the actual town. Even released it would probably be dangerous to fight full force. They moved the town for a reason, this fight they would have to go all out. They moved the town not so Aizen can't get it, but so the captains can fight freely.

3)Pride. Byakuya wanted to crush ichigo but probably not with full strength. We see many time him looking downward upon Ichigo. I'm pretty sure his pride would've been hurt more if he had to resort to using full strength against someone as lowly as Ichigo.

Yes they are assumptions, but I didn't just wake up and pull them out of my ass. It's just one way you can take the story. Manga isn't usually as well developed as a book. The reader usually fills things in with his imagination. The author just gives you stuff to build on in your head.

The power boost thing though, I'm sure there's been a slight improvement since they all knew the war was coming. Although how much though we'll never really know.

Like you said Xem, the way the story is written, there's too many holes for a concrete answer. If you want a concrete view, yours would be accurate. For me, I prefer filling in the holes with what I can see and what I infer in my head from my views of each character.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:21 pm 
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XemnasXD wrote:
Blackdragon6 wrote:
XemnasXD wrote:

you can stand by it all you want that doesn't change the facts and contradictions i listed above...

also if kenpachi didn't go all out on ichigo why he he collapse after the fight, i mean he may have just been enjoying it and not wanting to go all out but when that happened with Nnitoria he just went two hands and ended it...

Anime is all full of Contradiction. Ichigo is a combat evolver. What your saying is that he shouldn't get stronger by fighting stronger opponents. He in fact did get a hole ripped in his chest and has lost battles before.. Coming back stronger is in his character. If a character didn't evolve in an Anime then he wouldn't stand out.
And I mean the captains are pretty much the same as they haven't grown in an outstanding way like Ichigo.
Ichigo's Strength isn't that Surprising considering Ulqiorra #4 put a hole in his Chest without to much strain technically killing him and Captain Shunsui Took out Stark #1 without any near fatal wounds.

Who ever said Noitora could kill Grimjow? They haven't fought once.


Something long and Boring

I do see the way Ichigo grows. But it has been stated many times his reiatsu is infinite. With every battle he grows and learns to use more and more of his power. And he doesn't win every battle. He lost against Grimjow. He lost against Ulqiorra also. And only survived due to his hollow powers that have been there since his own Shinigami powers. When Ulqiorra and Yami went to earth the first time also... And who could forget getting cut down by Byakuya when he has Rukias powers still. and plenty more I'm sure.
So he's not unstoppable, but if they kill off the main char completely that would make for a crappy Anime......

I never said that captains didn't get stronger. I said they seem pretty much the "same". They don't have much more of a "pop" if you will as when they were first introduced.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:07 am 
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there are little to no plot holes in good manga, don't let BLEACH and Naruto set the standard...many mangaka actually take the time to fully develop characters and flesh out the plot and its background...

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:10 am 
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Where them spoilers at?

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:01 am 
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XemnasXD wrote:
there are little to no plot holes in good manga, don't let BLEACH and Naruto set the standard...many mangaka actually take the time to fully develop characters and flesh out the plot and its background...

Naruto/Bleach/OP are the Top Viewed manga on a lot of different Sites. So the Creators are doing something right.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:30 am 
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CrimsonNuker wrote:
Where them spoilers at?


guess no one noticed when I posted this...lol

Ningyotsukai-san wrote:

There's something going on concerning "spoilers" of manga chaps. Last week's OP spoilers made it onto the news, where it was on some high traffic sites (youtube, etc), so there's gonna be a start of sending some C&D's (Cease and Desist) about ....so, some spoiler providers are laying low for awhile....so spoilers might be delayed, if not halted for a bit

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:06 am 
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Lol this weeks episode was kinda funny.
Spoiler!

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:11 am 
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Bleach ~

Spoiler!


Naruto ~

Spoiler!


OP ~

Spoiler!

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Bleach Spoiler:
Spoiler!


Yama is the strongest.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Blackdragon6 wrote:
XemnasXD wrote:
there are little to no plot holes in good manga, don't let BLEACH and Naruto set the standard...many mangaka actually take the time to fully develop characters and flesh out the plot and its background...

Naruto/Bleach/OP are the Top Viewed manga on a lot of different Sites. So the Creators are doing something right.


by that logic Brittany Spears, Justin Timberlake, and 50 cent are all fantastic artist and should set the standard for music everywhere....just because they're top viewed doesn't mean they're the best. There is a difference between making a good shonen manga and making an effective shonen manga. A good manga is engaging and well developed, see DB and OP...an effective manga just has the necessary elements to keep people interested despite it poor quality...kinda like how Micheal Bay can make a movie with a retarded plot and just fill it with tits and explosions and alot of people will go YEAH!! Whereas a good movie with lots of actions say, The Hurtlocker, goes largely unnoticed by the public.

Yeah this is a matter of personal taste but story telling is an art so there are certain standards. Some stories are clearly better than other and people who actually care about how stories are written take notice even if the general public just gets caught up in the hype of whats going on. Just because people think Sasuke is cool and Ichigo is osm doesn't make them good characters nor does it mean their manga is good...


all that aside im actually interested in BLEACH this week...but im not getting my hopes up with it...Naruto is 18 pages of Naruto and Sasuke saying each others names and crying...also did anyone else think it was funny how everyone who shows up to fight Sasuke keeps saying its their duty to handle him

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Madara needs to save Sasuke's punk ass nao.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:55 am 
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XemnasXD wrote:
Blackdragon6 wrote:
XemnasXD wrote:
there are little to no plot holes in good manga, don't let BLEACH and Naruto set the standard...many mangaka actually take the time to fully develop characters and flesh out the plot and its background...

Naruto/Bleach/OP are the Top Viewed manga on a lot of different Sites. So the Creators are doing something right.


by that logic Brittany Spears, Justin Timberlake, and 50 cent are all fantastic artist and should set the standard for music everywhere....just because they're top viewed doesn't mean they're the best. There is a difference between making a good shonen manga and making an effective shonen manga. A good manga is engaging and well developed, see DB and OP...an effective manga just has the necessary elements to keep people interested despite it poor quality...kinda like how Micheal Bay can make a movie with a retarded plot and just fill it with tits and explosions and alot of people will go YEAH!! Whereas a good movie with lots of actions say, The Hurtlocker, goes largely unnoticed by the public.

Yeah this is a matter of personal taste but story telling is an art so there are certain standards. Some stories are clearly better than other and people who actually care about how stories are written take notice even if the general public just gets caught up in the hype of whats going on. Just because people think Sasuke is cool and Ichigo is osm doesn't make them good characters nor does it mean their manga is good...


all that aside im actually interested in BLEACH this week...but im not getting my hopes up with it...Naruto is 18 pages of Naruto and Sasuke saying each others names and crying...also did anyone else think it was funny how everyone who shows up to fight Sasuke keeps saying its their duty to handle him

Did you seriously compare Bleach / Naruto to Britney Spears?.. you are really desperate to rag on them lol.
Fantasy vs Reality never makes a good comparison nor does it make any sense lol

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:05 am 
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Blackdragon6 wrote:
Did you seriously compare Bleach / Naruto to Britney Spears?.. you are really desperate to rag on them lol.
Fantasy vs Reality never makes a good comparison nor does it make any sense lol


lol. You missed his analogy. You made an appeal to popularity (argumentum ad populum), which in itself is a fallacy. You basically argued that Bleach/Naruto are good because they are popular. Xemnas' use of Britney Spears is perfectly valid to refute your argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:01 am 
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Prophet Izaach wrote:
Blackdragon6 wrote:
Did you seriously compare Bleach / Naruto to Britney Spears?.. you are really desperate to rag on them lol.
Fantasy vs Reality never makes a good comparison nor does it make any sense lol


lol. You missed his analogy. You made an appeal to popularity (argumentum ad populum), which in itself is a fallacy. You basically argued that Bleach/Naruto are good because they are popular. Xemnas' use of Britney Spears is perfectly valid to refute your argument.

My pointing out their popularity wasn't my main point. It was to support the fact that it has been growing rather than falling as a Manga. Google Manga and the first thing that pops up is
http://www.onemanga.com/ with the top 3 Viewed as Naruto/Bleach/OP in that Order.

I understood his analogy, but in turn it doesn't make sense in the fact that Britney Spears has great musical talent, but as a person she isn't very popular and constantly looked down on as well as shamed for her lifestyle. You can't really compare the popularity of a Japanese manga to that of a person unless it's as a whole and not a partial. There's a reason she's called a guilty pleasure.

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:03 am 
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good god you are stupid...

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:10 am 
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XemnasXD wrote:
good god you are stupid...

Why do you feel the need to make it personal. You seem to be the one mistaken.. Your points are all off base so you compare it to Britney spears. Great speech really :dope:

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 Post subject: Re: Bleach
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:11 am 
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