Got my first mac!

Azilius · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 4236 **Location:** CS:GO

strangelove wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_and_feel

^ That's what I mean by 'look and feel'. It's a somewhat basic UI term so I assumed you were familiar with it. I'm only mentioning this again because I think you might be under the impression that I'm trying to romanticize UI usage or something; its an actual thing. What I can't wrap my head around is why you believe ignorance to be the only reason people buy Macs (well, I actually do understand why, but your reasoning is petty to say the least). More specifically, it sounds like you're implying that people who buy computers from other manufacturers do so based on reasoned logic outweighing the pros and cons of their purchase. Basically, I think you're projecting your own standards a little too strongly to the general public and that is very unrealistic. People in general don't care what hardware they have, or what score they'll get in 3DMark. Cost is equally unimportant unless they're on a budget. To the average user, these contrivances are irrelevant. As long as they're able to do things they like, they'll be happy, and the computer will have been worth every cent no matter how cheap or expensive it may have been.

I don't believe ignorance is the only reason people buy Macs, but when I said general crowd I meant a group of people who pretty much know nothing about computers. I mean lets face it most people don't. When I ask someone in any of my classes at school why they have a Mac or what they like about it, they'll answer something like "because it doesn't get viruses" or "because it never crashes and it's perfect". I don't think I've gotten a single answer pertaining to the UI or how it is useful to them..I mirror this to the general crowd that buy Macs. Even though it's a pretty big assumption I don't think it's too far from the truth.

I think you're kind of telling the half truth here about consumers. Of course they'll be happy if they can do what they want, but if you mention to them that computer A is technically better than computer B, even though they are the same price, then they'll most likely choose A over B (UI and shit aside..). It makes no sense to take the lesser of the two.

I also don't think cost isn't that unimportant. Most people won't spend $9000 on a Mac or PC regardless if there is some $1000 alternative. Sure to a degree cost isn't that big of a deal, but when one is double or more the price of another I think I'll have to disagree with you.

Quote:

Azilius wrote:

The 'just works' line is bullshit as well because I've seen Macs crash, errors happen and the like.

Unfortunately, 'just works' doesn't mean what you think it does. Also, the iPhone 4's 'Retina Display' won't make blind people see and the iPad is not actually 'Magical', lol. This is the sort of statement I would expect from a technology layman. I mean, you sound like a pretty reasonable guy and you show interest in tech stuff so I can only assume you're familiar with tech marketing talk and you're able to distinguish that from what it actually means, so it's a little surprising to me that this is the sort of flawed logic you've been applying here. I gave you an example in a previous reply of how that specific talking point gets propagated, so I'm guessing you either ignored it or dismissed it.

Aha I know I took that way too literally. Pretend I'm someone who doesn't know much about computers though. I see those mac vs PC commercials all the time and how Macs don't get fatal errors, they never get viruses blah blah blah, they just work! Then I go to a store to buy a computer, well I'd obviously pick the Mac, even though all of those things mentioned in the commercial are far from the truth.

Stress wrote:

Also, someone who has only seriously used Windows Operating systems can only have a biased point of view.

As I said earlier..I use Ubuntu mainly on my Laptop for school and other things.

Referring back to your first post, it sounds like you've never used Windows =\

Quote:

By working on a Mac, you can become, in time, much better at using it, and it can really speed up your work.

Quote:

The point I'm trying to make is that the Mac - compared to Windows - feels like a whole new world, much more organized, much more logical, much more functional, and with a little bit of practice and time spent with it, significantly more useful and helpful.

If you could, please explain to me how using a Mac will speed up my work, and how it's more useful. I can open an MS word document with spell-check and whatever else in about 3 seconds. I can make 3d models and such in about..3 seconds I can convert media, download things and anything else you can think of. I can do pretty much everything a Mac can in the same or less amount of time (of course there are exceptions that go both ways).

This is where the conversation first let off, and I never got a real answer. Instead you talked about your IBM thinkpad and IPS monitors (and you are clearly ignoring me every time I tell you that you can buy a 23" IPS for the price of a 24" TN). Then it somehow turned into the look and feel factor among other things. If you're telling me that's what's going to speed up my work significantly then I'm in disbelief.

Stress · **Posted:** Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:18 pm

MS Word, lol. Have you ever heard of Vim or emacs? Download Vim, learn a little bit about how it works, then compare it to MS word. Extrapolate the principle you extract from your comparison, and come back with the results. Have fun.

EDIT: The post about my ThinkPad was to show that high-end technology costs much, no matter if it is Apple, IBM, or anything else. And yes, you can buy 23" Dell IPS Monitors for the price of a 24" TN, I've looked it up. You're right, you can. I, for one, would never buy a 23" Dell monitor, which costs as much as a 24" TN. I believe in the principle, that a low price almost automatically equates to low performance (if you evaluate the product from many different points of view, not just numbers, or design, for example). I prefer to use 4:3 monitors exclusively, it's just that they're very hard to find nowadays. Samsung SyncMaster 213T > all.

Doron · **Posted:** Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:28 pm

Yeahh, so, topic TL:DR.

But Dom, nice vid on how gay the Mac is, I do like your headphones tho. Where'd you get em? *headphones fetish.*

Azilius · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 4236 **Location:** CS:GO

ms word was purely used as an example (I thought that was obvious). VIM from the looks of it, is an advanced text editor. Cool. This helps me get my essay done faster how? I ask this because that is exactly what you implied. How does this allow me to create some semi-log graphs concerning IBM processor speeds faster? Can I program C++ in it faster than in some c++ equivalent (currently using bloodshed dev C++)? Nope.

Is that program more useful than ms word? Could be. Does this mean Macs are more useful than windows based PCs? No. Not in the slightest. I have some shitty program to convert videos to DVD format for burning, it never worked. Macs probably have a nice program to convert videos to DVD format. This must mean Macs are undoubtedly more useful and faster than Windows PCs.

come on..

edit: just saw your edit..
Not every company marks up simple parts 300% higher than they should be. IPS monitors are no wave of the future amazing technology that needs to be priced at $1000 per 24" monitor. By your logic everyone should purchase those $300 Monster HDMI cables instead of the $5 equivalents that do the exact same thing, else they couldn't be called HDMI cables.

dom · **Posted:** Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:28 am

Azilius wrote:

By your logic everyone should purchase those $300 Monster HDMI cables instead of the $5 equivalents that do the exact same thing, else they couldn't be called HDMI cables.

The difference is that OSX =/= Windows.

A better comparison would be comparing a motorcycle and a jetski.

Or even more accurate, I guess, would be a sports car and a luxury car.

Stress · **Posted:** Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:33 am

Quote:

Can I program C++ in it faster than in some c++ equivalent (currently using bloodshed dev C++)? Nope.

Oh, but of course you can. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw you post this. Refractoring and revising code is MUCH more faster than in conventional editors - such as bloodshed dev C++ offers -. If you fail to see why, you're unaware of the true functionality of VIM. Writing your essay? All right, VIM doesn't make it faster for you. Correcting it, however, is much faster, by any means. The superior navigation, search and replace functions VIM has to offer clearly outclass the slow, painstaking MS Word search, for example. And the search is just a minor example, there's much more to say, of course.

Quote:

Not every company marks up simple parts 300% higher than they should be.

That's right. The Apple Hard Drive prices are ridiculous, I don't appreciate or support that. However, here's another thing I'd like to say. You were talking about Dell IPS monitors. Let's stop talking about the low-end stuff. Let's compare the high-end hardware.

$1049 - 27" Dell IPS: http://www.pclaunches.com/monitors/dell ... onitor.php
$1000 - 27" Apple IPS: http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC007LL/A

Both are high-end monitors, the specs are practically identical. So is the price. As I was saying, with some exceptions (like the stupid Apple Hard Drive prices), high-end hardware costs the same, no matter who manufactures it.

Quote:

Does this mean Macs are more useful than windows based PCs? No.

I never said Macs are more useful than Windows PC's, just because VIM is much better than MS Word. VIM runs on Windows too, anyways. However, here is what I tried to tell you in my previous post. If you compare many aspects of Mac Os to Windows, just as you've compared VIM to MS Word (just as you've used MS Word as an example, I use this particular comparison as an example), you will begin to be aware of a lot more subtle aspects than what a first sight can reveal you. As far as I have experienced Windows, it is very straightforward, and you can pretty much figure out what it is capable of after a short period of time spent using it. It's different with Macs, or, for that matter, any high-end or professional software or hardware.

You see, it is things like this that you seem to fail to understand. There are certain, subtle aspects of software - and even hardware design - that distinguish one product from another. They're just not visible to everyone.

Ignorance is bliss.

EDIT: dom is right. You can't compare a luxury car with a race car, but it just so happens that the majority of luxury cars have pretty powerful engines as well; but in fact, in most race cars, you feel quite uncomfortable.

Azilius · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 4236 **Location:** CS:GO

Uhg you both took some of my post way out of context..

Quote:

The difference is that OSX =/= Windows.

A better comparison would be comparing a motorcycle and a jetski.

Or even more accurate, I guess, would be a sports car and a luxury car.

The monster bit was ONLY referring to IPS monitors, because Stress said that 'its cheap so its bad'. I was showing how this logic is flawed, through the use of HDMI cable pricing.

Now that that's out of the way..

This whole VIM conversation now seems irrelevant. My question was very simple and it seems like I'll have to ask it a third time..

Azilius wrote:

Quote:

By working on a Mac, you can become, in time, much better at using it, and it can really speed up your work.

Quote:

The point I'm trying to make is that the Mac - compared to Windows - feels like a whole new world, much more organized, much more logical, much more functional, and with a little bit of practice and time spent with it, significantly more useful and helpful.

If you could, please explain to me how using a Mac will speed up my work, and how it's more useful.

Quote:

I never said Macs are more useful than Windows PC's

In an attempt to answer the speed question, you've tried to show me that subtle differences are the reason. Then you say that you can mirror this concept onto OSX. Why? Can you even answer that? What are you going to do, give me some examples of how you can do things quicker because of some subtle difference in OSX? That doesn't prove anything because there are literally millions of subtle differences each with their own benefit or problem.

All you've done is brought up an unprovable point.

and I guess..to address this monitor bs. The only reason I kept bringing up the price and availability of an IPS monitor was because you were acting as if Windows = TN panel, when it doesn't. Just like Mac != 27". You took the 300% price comment to heart and used it to prove something completely different..but not really because

high-end hardware eh?
2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i5
2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 [Add $200.00]

$200 more?

16GB 1333MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 4x4GB [Add $1,000.00]

wha? What else is there to compare even? Unless you're suggesting high-end only means monitors.

dom · **Posted:** Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:50 am

Azilius wrote:

wha? What else is there to compare even? Unless you're suggesting high-end only means monitors.

Compare Fug Dup and I blasting two holes in your chest and bumping dicks.

Azilius · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 4236 **Location:** CS:GO

That was referring to hardware prices but whatever -_-

McLovin1t · **Joined:** Apr 2008 **Posts:** 1825 **Location:**

Azilius wrote:

Uhg you both took some of my post way out of context..

Quote:

The difference is that OSX =/= Windows.

A better comparison would be comparing a motorcycle and a jetski.

Or even more accurate, I guess, would be a sports car and a luxury car.

The monster bit was ONLY referring to IPS monitors, because Stress said that 'its cheap so its bad'. I was showing how this logic is flawed, through the use of HDMI cable pricing.

Now that that's out of the way..

This whole VIM conversation now seems irrelevant. My question was very simple and it seems like I'll have to ask it a third time..

Azilius wrote:

Quote:

By working on a Mac, you can become, in time, much better at using it, and it can really speed up your work.

Quote:

The point I'm trying to make is that the Mac - compared to Windows - feels like a whole new world, much more organized, much more logical, much more functional, and with a little bit of practice and time spent with it, significantly more useful and helpful.

If you could, please explain to me how using a Mac will speed up my work, and how it's more useful.

Quote:

I never said Macs are more useful than Windows PC's

In an attempt to answer the speed question, you've tried to show me that subtle differences are the reason. Then you say that you can mirror this concept onto OSX. Why? Can you even answer that? What are you going to do, give me some examples of how you can do things quicker because of some subtle difference in OSX? That doesn't prove anything because there are literally millions of subtle differences each with their own benefit or problem.

All you've done is brought up an unprovable point.

and I guess..to address this monitor bs. The only reason I kept bringing up the price and availability of an IPS monitor was because you were acting as if Windows = TN panel, when it doesn't. Just like Mac != 27". You took the 300% price comment to heart and used it to prove something completely different..but not really because

high-end hardware eh?
2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i5
2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 [Add $200.00]

$200 more?

16GB 1333MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 4x4GB [Add $1,000.00]

wha? What else is there to compare even? Unless you're suggesting high-end only means monitors.

Looks like you win. I mean what it really comes down to is preference and cost from what I can observe as a third party in this debate.
"VIM is easier and super cool"
"No it's not more useful"
Obviously they are pretty much the same in usage, and you can download any OSX to any computer if you really set your mind to it

.
Also, Stress, you only pan to Dell Monitors, dell is INCREDIBLY overpriced, I hope you realize, and considering apple manufactures their own monitors, the high price is what you are ALWAYS going to get. The cost of a Mac is FAR too ridiculous to even be considered I think in a pragmatic setting.

strangelove · **Joined:** Aug 2007 **Posts:** 1255 **Location:** no

dom wrote:

Compare Fug Dup and I blasting two holes in your chest and bumping dicks.

LMA-- wait.. Fug Dup?!

Azilius wrote:

I don't believe ignorance is the only reason people buy Macs, but when I said general crowd I meant a group of people who pretty much know nothing about computers. I mean lets face it most people don't. When I ask someone in any of my classes at school why they have a Mac or what they like about it, they'll answer something like "because it doesn't get viruses" or "because it never crashes and it's perfect". I don't think I've gotten a single answer pertaining to the UI or how it is useful to them..I mirror this to the general crowd that buy Macs. Even though it's a pretty big assumption I don't think it's too far from the truth.

I think you're kind of telling the half truth here about consumers. Of course they'll be happy if they can do what they want, but if you mention to them that computer A is technically better than computer B, even though they are the same price, then they'll most likely choose A over B (UI and shit aside..). It makes no sense to take the lesser of the two.

I also don't think cost isn't that unimportant. Most people won't spend $9000 on a Mac or PC regardless if there is some $1000 alternative. Sure to a degree cost isn't that big of a deal, but when one is double or more the price of another I think I'll have to disagree with you.

Nice straw man there, but as I previously said, I understand your "why", I just think your reasoning is petty. If those same students gave you detailed and reasoned responses for their Mac purchase, you still wouldn't be satisfied, and would probably begin the "higher-price" talking point soon after. Consumers don't need a reason to buy the products they do. They don't need a "why". People buy things that are WAY overpriced all the time and that's their choice to do so. That their purchases don't make sense to you personally is irrelevant, not to mention a little pretentious. You probably own some popular brand-name shirts or shoes or even food, right? Why couldn't you just buy the other brand product for less money? This is essentially your argument– you've basically compartmentalized your logic to be applied in some areas, but anything else is fair game.

I just got back from buying a Louis Vuitton bag that I'm giving my mom on Christmas and it cost me hundreds of dollars more than I would've liked even though it was on sale. It's a pretty good handbag, I guess, nice quality and packaging. I turned my TV on when I got home and there was a commercial selling a no-name bag for $19.95 and it had like 40 different compartments for storing stuff. The bag I bought has maybe 2-3 compartments. "Spec-wise", the bag I just bought is a huge rip-off. I mean, I just got played like baby grand here. However, from a different perspective, I'm comparing a high quality original Louis Vuitton handbag to some crappy imitation-leather satchel. I could've also bought a good-looking LV knock-off for $60 from the back of someone's car if I wanted, but it was my choice as a consumer to buy an original LV bag even if it was more expensive and less functional then the other two. Point being, it wasn't through my own ignorance that I purchased a Louis Vuitton bag, but because my only concern was the product as a whole.

Now, let me show you why your next point is also incorrect. You mentioned before you had an iPod Touch. "UI and shit" aside, the iPod Touch is pretty inferior a music player compared to others in the market. It doesn't even have FM radio. If you were to compare the technologies and features of MP3 players sans UI or OS features, by your reasoning, the logical choice would be to choose the non-Apple model because it has more features for much less money. However, because of the "UI and shit" and other OS features, the iPod has been incredibly successful even against even the most feature-packed MP3 players in the market. As I said before, the sum of all parts matters more than parts individually.

Azilius wrote:

Aha I know I took that way too literally. Pretend I'm someone who doesn't know much about computers though. I see those mac vs PC commercials all the time and how Macs don't get fatal errors, they never get viruses blah blah blah, they just work! Then I go to a store to buy a computer, well I'd obviously pick the Mac, even though all of those things mentioned in the commercial are far from the truth.

Welcome to TV, where half-truths and hyperbole are law of the land. It's like those auto ads where you see some X Brand car driving around some city and you swear you just saw a de-badged BMW or Mercedes in the background, making it seem like this car is better. A few years back, Microsoft made an anti-Linux FUD site to try to discredit Linux as a server OS. I thought they had taken it down but apparently they just changed the name:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver/ ... fault.mspx

Does this justify Apple doing the same thing? No. However, my point is that these are just marketing tactics which every major corporation uses to entice people into buying their products. It just happens to be that Apple are very good at this, or alternatively, that others are very bad at theirs.

McLovin1t · **Joined:** Apr 2008 **Posts:** 1825 **Location:**

Oh My God. Strangelove, that analogy with the handbag was quite possibly the least accurate analogy I have ever seen in my entire life. It was so inaccurate that I won't even respond. I want you to think for yourself why it was just so stupid.

strangelove · **Joined:** Aug 2007 **Posts:** 1255 **Location:** no

McLovin1t wrote:

Oh My God. Strangelove, that analogy with the handbag was quite possibly the least accurate analogy I have ever seen in my entire life. It was so inaccurate that I won't even respond. I want you to think for yourself why it was just so stupid.

Then it's a good thing I wasn't going for accuracy, just perspective. I wasn't referring to computers either, but consumer goods in general. This would've been obvious if read without first assuming context, but that might be asking for too much.

Doron · **Posted:** Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:18 pm

Hey dom, where'd you get those headphones from the vid?

Hostage · **Posted:** Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:16 pm

strangelove wrote:

[color=#000000]

dom wrote:

Compare Fug Dup and I blasting two holes in your chest and bumping dicks.

LMA-- wait.. Fug Dup?!

Nobody cares about your stoopid name change referencing stoopid movies. Stoopid! Also...

[sarcasm]....you guys are such fanboys, grow up and see it our way already. It's not like macs are beautifully suited for both the visual and audible arts, user friendly, great at multitasking and over less hassle. I bet you guys don't even have Pc's that you use in conjunction with your macs depending on the task at hand and just being totally bias.....double pffft.[/sarcasm] I'm also a little late to the thread so forgive me my leage's and gratz to Stress, enjoy it!:}

Azilius · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 4236 **Location:** CS:GO

strangelove wrote:

Consumers don't need a reason to buy the products they do. They don't need a "why". People buy things that are WAY overpriced all the time and that's their choice to do so. That their purchases don't make sense to you personally is irrelevant, not to mention a little pretentious. You probably own some popular brand-name shirts or shoes or even food, right? Why couldn't you just buy the other brand product for less money? This is essentially your argument– you've basically compartmentalized your logic to be applied in some areas, but anything else is fair game.

This would be true IF my shoes were made of some significantly lesser material, or the food I bought wasn't as good as the no-name brand, but food usually gets better as it goes up the price range, as do shoes (to a point).

Quote:

Now, let me show you why your next point is also incorrect. You mentioned before you had an iPod Touch. "UI and shit" aside, the iPod Touch is pretty inferior a music player compared to others in the market. It doesn't even have FM radio. If you were to compare the technologies and features of MP3 players sans UI or OS features, by your reasoning, the logical choice would be to choose the non-Apple model because it has more features for much less money. However, because of the "UI and shit" and other OS features, the iPod has been incredibly successful even against even the most feature-packed MP3 players in the market. As I said before, the sum of all parts matters more than parts individually.

My only real defense for this is that it was a Christmas gift. But you're kind of twisting my words and context as the "UI and shit" comment, however layman it may be, was only referring to computers, not mp3 players and technology as a whole. When I got my iTouch it was still 'revolutionary' in the sense that nothing like it was out. There are many alternatives to OSX (windows!) which don't lack such extreme things.

Quote:

Does this justify Apple doing the same thing? No. However, my point is that these are just marketing tactics which every major corporation uses to entice people into buying their products. It just happens to be that Apple are very good at this, or alternatively, that others are very bad at theirs.

They do it so much more in my eyes that it seems they rely on it to make a startling amount of their sales =\ That's why I brought it up.

The bigger picture is being lost in all these smaller arguments due to analogies and twisted words not working as everyone planned..I understand your point that it's not just the hardware but the system as a whole. I question the degree of effect the look and feel factor has and if it's really worth the giant price increase, and I also mentioned that it works both ways. You say people don't care about price as long as they like what they have. I say that's silly, money is way too important in this world and Apple is relying too heavily on this kind of ignorance to make sales. And I'm kind of lost on whatever else we talked about, some of that stuff could have been said by Stress I don't really remember >_>

It looks like it all comes down to heavy preference and whether or not you're willing to spend the extra dollars because you don't care about cost. I'm not short on money but I don't believe in making uneducated purchases for that amount, which is what I see a lot of people doing.

Stress · **Posted:** Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:23 pm

Quote:

And I'm kind of lost on whatever else we talked about.

So am I, really. You've summed it up pretty well in your last post. There's one answer I still owe you; I'm going to cut it short. You said it isn't possible to extrapolate the conclusions of the VIM vs. MS Word comparison to a Mac OS vs. Windows comparison, and that I simply couldn't prove it to be possible.
That's right, I can't. The only way to prove something, one way or another, is to actually use Mac OS for a while. Gosh, this almost sounds like Christian propaganda, I'm not calling anyone to the "Mac religion", of course. ^^

I just found a very cheap Mac, and decided I wanted to try it out. I'm not like.. switching to Mac completely, but I can't say I don't like it. I doubt anyone who uses Mac doesn't like it.

MasterKojito · **Posted:** Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:21 am

I use a mac and a pc on a daily basis. I have problems with the mac sometimes and sometimes I have problems with the pc. I like them both and I hate them both. :yay:

dom · **Posted:** Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:34 am

FYI the Mac Mini, the newest model, is on sale:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013F ... ag=awz3-20

Azilius · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 4236 **Location:** CS:GO

Apple is having/had a black friday sale actually =p

everything was $100~ off

Oxyclean · **Joined:** Aug 2010 **Posts:** 714 **Location:**

i'm not interested in your cockroach porn dom

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